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The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

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Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#201

Post by jacquesm »

JackFr wrote: post #67
Nition wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to diminish the achievement, but worth noting I think that RollerCoaster Tycoon was based on his earlier Transport Tycoon engine, so at least he did get to split the work up between two projects. I have a personal theory the that the average 10x programmer is say 2.5x smarter than average, but also 4x more focused on work, netting a 2.5x4=10x total when you remove all the procrastination and general fumbling arou…

> worth noting I think that RollerCoaster Tycoon was based on his earlier Transport Tycoon engine, The 10x productivity comes in large part from the code they DON'T write.

And from writing things the right way the first time around rather than on iteration #3 or so.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#202

Post by zebraflask »

xupybd wrote: post #119
dangus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other factor is a lack of personal life boundaries. The 10x engineers that I’ve interacted with can be found working on nights and weekends because they enjoy it and have nothing better to do. Working those nights and weekends without coworker interruption also means that they get to learn more things freely rather than being interrupted. As a result they tend to be highly productive, but I’d argue that it could…

These engineers end up with much more experience in a shorter time span. The guy that worked 40 hours for the last 5 years is going to have far less experience than the guy who worked 60 hours for the last 5. More experience tends to lead to better decision making and better code. That said I'm the 40 hour guy. I want to work to live not live to work. That will make me less of a developer than others but I think I st…

Glad to hear that you don't buy into the myth that longer hours are better for their own sake - I agree.

Realistically, I've never met any programmer who has more than 4 to 6 (on a really good day) hours of solidly useful work in them per day.

Time spent above that, and those 20+ hours above 40, are invariably spent spinning wheels and making mistakes from fatigue, etc. and I think ought to be discouraged in sensibly run orgs.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#203

Post by collyw »

remmargorp64 wrote: post #3

10X programmers DO exist. They aren't just a myth, and they aren't just about knowing when to buy vs build, or when to use a particular framework or toolkit, or how to "mentor" other developers. Chris Sawyer wrote 99% of the code for RollerCoaster Tycoon in x86 assembly language, with the remaining one percent written in C. RollerCoaster Tycoon was a beautiful game which still stands the test of time to this day. The…

Surely it depends a lot on the project. When I wrote the system myself then I was a 10x developer. Now I am working on someone else's code i am not.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#204

Post by username90 »

collyw wrote: post #203
remmargorp64 wrote: post #3

10X programmers DO exist. They aren't just a myth, and they aren't just about knowing when to buy vs build, or when to use a particular framework or toolkit, or how to "mentor" other developers. Chris Sawyer wrote 99% of the code for RollerCoaster Tycoon in x86 assembly language, with the remaining one percent written in C. RollerCoaster Tycoon was a beautiful game which still stands the test of time to this day. The…

Surely it depends a lot on the project. When I wrote the system myself then I was a 10x developer. Now I am working on someone else's code i am not.

> When I wrote the system myself then I was a 10x developer.

Where you 10x more productive than other developers writing systems themselves?

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#205

Post by username90 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #174
leroman wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a consultant for a considerable part of my career, whilst sometimes working solo on writing a system from scratch. In one example, re-writing a system written by 7 team members + architect, taking half the time.. Maybe due to working in an organization without a formal org position.. I had to make sure bad requirements, process, tech decisions etc.. don't get in the way of properly collecting requirements, desi…

I'm glad this appears to give you some satisfaction, but I hope I never have to work with you, or around you, or on any project you've worked on.

What is wrong with ignoring and working around toxic people who only undermines the project?

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#206

Post by username90 »

prostheticvamp wrote: post #83
m0zg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> not so smart that you’re just lost when talking to them That, BTW, is a sure sign that someone is trying to appear smarter than they really are. Having worked at 2 research labs over the course of my career I know more than my fair share of genius-level people. Without fail, they are humble about it, and can explain complex concepts in a way the rest of us can understand. This is something that just blows my mind…

As Feynman said: you don’t really understand a subject until you can explain it to your grandfather.

Just a note, Feynman was very bad at explaining things to uneducated people. He was famous for his insights and ability to explain things to other professionals, but his lectures were very badly received by the students. So I'd take that statement with a grain of salt, as Feynman obviously have way better understanding than an average lecturer.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#207

Post by anthonypasq »

lazarljubenovic wrote: post #189
dustinmoris wrote: post #168

This whole 10x programmers debate is tiring. Why do we even argue over such a dumb thing? OF COURSE THEY EXIST. That is not even debatable. It's a fact of life that there are people who can achieve more than others. It is the case in sports, in politics, in school, and not surprisingly also in tech. You have football players who play their entire life and they don't progress beyond a hobby team and then you've got th…

I never understood the concept of 10x apart from it being a (misused) meme. For (almost) every developer you can find one that will do "the thing" a few times faster and one that will do it a few times slower. It also depends on what is "the thing".

This is another example of this delusion people have about specificity when comparing outliers to normal people.

Genius level programmers are better than you at everything related to computer science. And if they aren't familiar with it, they will become familiar with it in a fraction of the time and then easily surpass you. This is why we call human intelligence 'general'. Because it applies everywhere.

Unless you think your ability to do your job is entirely dependent on tooling and learned knowledge, smarter people will quickly become better than you.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#208

Post by pbhjpbhj »

1337shadow wrote: post #91
prostheticvamp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Feynman said: you don’t really understand a subject until you can explain it to your grandfather.

And that's how I explained the cloud to my grandma: the company buys big daddy servers which make baby computers that the company sells for profit. She was so happy she finally understood what my job was at the time.

How about: instead of keeping photos in a shoebox in your cupboard at home, you can keep them in a container at a company's storage place. But people want their own box, so the company divide their container box up into pigeon-holes and fit all the shoeboxes in to the spaces in it. If you want to look at the pictures you can go and view them, you only have access to your own shoebox though.

Shoebox is logical computer, cupboard is computer, container is a distant "big" computer (server), pigeon hole is a virtual server.

Now you might have a few boxes of photos at different companies -- the cloud is being able to see/use all those photos at the same time from anywhere in the World.

[Perhaps too close to storage model vs processing model of cloud?]

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#209

Post by marcus_holmes »

Beltiras wrote: post #177
marcus_holmes wrote: post #155

I think part of the objection to 10x programmers is around expectations, self-assessment, and attitudes. There are people out there who have difficulty working with others. Some of those people feel that this difficulty is because they're so FUCKING SMART and the others are morons who are beneath them. They're extremely difficult to work with in a team environment, but come across as completely confident about their…

I've been a 10X in the past. I don't exactly know why it faded away. Might be that I really REALLY believed in the mission back then but haven't found the spark for anything since. I'm not sure I exuded the toxicity you associate with 10X but I know I wasn't pleasant. I put myself under way too much pressure to get results. My boss is a 10X all the time. I guess he believes in the mission he's on renovating the IT in…

Totally agree. My productivity has varied over the decades, as has my attitude to the rest of the team. Luckily, I don't think I ever claimed to be "10x" (lucky because I have been at least that arrogant in the past).

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#210

Post by zweep »

remmargorp64 wrote: post #3

10X programmers DO exist. They aren't just a myth, and they aren't just about knowing when to buy vs build, or when to use a particular framework or toolkit, or how to "mentor" other developers. Chris Sawyer wrote 99% of the code for RollerCoaster Tycoon in x86 assembly language, with the remaining one percent written in C. RollerCoaster Tycoon was a beautiful game which still stands the test of time to this day. The…

And there’s a 1000x programmer who doesn’t deliver something that a team of 1000 people would create, they deliver something that a 1000 person team couldn’t create in their wildest dreams. Dennis Ritchie, Jeff Dean, etc.
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