Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets • Hacker News Board

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#201

Post by daveFNbuck » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

theredlion wrote: post #43

j7ake wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

If you're deciding between two similar candidates, the choice is pretty arbitrary anyway. As a white man, I've never been discouraged from pursuing my career in tech. A woman who is similarly qualified than I am probably overcame more and worked harder to get there than I did, so it's a reasonable tie breaker even if you don't value diversity for its own sake.

Even with these tie breakers, most large tech companies have about 10% women in engineering, so this discrimination isn't affecting the men that much. Are the companies you're thinking of different in this regard?

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#202

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

theredlion wrote: post #43

j7ake wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

Funny how its 'blantant' when men are at a disadvantage. Where was this comment the other 99% of the places, when women and minorities are nearly non-existant? Not worth mentioning?

I know its an idealistic comment, that the world should be fair in every place. But because these comments come out only when men are not in their usual favored position, I cannot help but see them as a kind of 'institutional bias' for men.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#203

Post by herval » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

theredlion wrote: post #43

j7ake wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

This is NOT a common occurrence. Even if it was, white male American isn’t a protected category, so that would very unlikely be characterized as “discrimination”. AND we’d have “several large companies” with actual representation of minorities and women. There is none.

The reality is these groups remain underrepresented, and others even more so (latinos in the Bay Area are a second class “minority”, for instance).

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#204

Post by theredlion » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

badfrog wrote: post #79

theredlion wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the companies that are proud of it per se. Not directly at least. The people who are proud of it are the ones directly involved, typically lower downs in HR or the public facing department. The message gets translated when coming from the top down or when going into the public. It turns into something to the effect of how inclusive and diverse the company is. The higher ups especially turn a blind eye (or ar…

A handful of low level employees deliberately violating company policy is very far from your original statement of"several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate"

Not just violating company policy; violating federal law.

There is little congruence between C-level and workers at a large company. It doesn't take many levels of separation for that to occur.

In this case, the discrepancy lies between people at the top saying that they value diversity and inclusion, then people who doing the hiring acting on that message based on their interpretation of it.

Companies do a LOT of things that are sketchy at best and overtly illegal at worst. The amount of time since the last public fiasco is generally a good indicator of how fast and loose they play (even more for companies which have never had a negative public incident).

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#205

Post by filoeleven » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

theredlion wrote: post #43

j7ake wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

That's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is…

> That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job.

You just described affirmative action there. Your previous sentence doesn’t follow from this though:

> The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher.

This is true if and only if there are other applicants who are not white or male. Imagine that two white dudes with similar qualifications apply for the same job. How do you decide which one gets hired? The answer is often something like “A is a better cultural fit” or “B has a more likable personality” or, though this one won’t be spoken aloud, “C is more physically attractive.” And that’s that, the only person who minds in this case is the one passed over.

The problem is that “cultural fit” and “personality” and “attractiveness” are judgments that we tend to apply differently to people who don’t look like ourselves. There’s a lot more baggage around race and sex in America that influences these decisions, and the result has been the systemic disenfranchisement of women and people of color, especially black people. Affirmative action policies—preferring to hire from historically disadvantaged groups when all else is equal—are intended to counteract that tendency.

That’s what these companies are doing. People disagree on whether or not it’s a good idea. I personally think it is, until the industry (or perhaps the workforce as a whole) gets a lot closer to matching the demographics of the population.

(Edit: subject-verb agreement in a windy sentence)

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#206

Post by WaterSponge » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

IggleSniggle wrote: post #177

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Salary disclosure removes low outliers, but it doesn't do much to improve those near the mean. Having been disclosing my salary to colleagues (and generally recieving the same in return) I know that people who are close but not far below what they could get... don't really ask, or are satisfied with a below desrved raise. It also shouldn't do much to affect high outliers. If you are able to convince your…

That article has really stuck with me over the years. Here it is: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

A guide to corporate awareness. Great to read every year to make sure you're not lost in the madness.

"Play your part in the comedy, but don't identify yourself with your role."

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#207

Post by herval » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

throw0099 wrote: post #78

senordevnyc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, we’re trading anecdotes? Well, I know a lot of people, including many involved in hiring at various large tech companies, including myself. I’m sure they have programs to encourage diversity in hiring, but I seriously doubt they’re telling you they “blatantly discriminate” against white men and that white men have to perform much better in an interview in order to be hired. That’s an incomplete and simplistic sto…

Referral bonuses for women and minorities, and especially female minorities, are 5x what they are for white men at my company. They may not say "go discriminate against white men," but they certainly say "we will pay you a lot more to get us somebody who isn't a white man." I'm someone who really likes having diverse engineering teams, but that sort of practice is pretty distasteful and obviously not meritocratic.

Do share what your company is, I have a gigantic list of contacts that would love to be treated as white american males, at least once!

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#208

Post by LadyCailin » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #38

senordevnyc wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people in the US talk about disadvantaged minorities, they generally mean minorities in the US. And a bunch of white American male software engineers disclosing their salaries can definitely help black and female software engineers.

Are black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?

Even if they aren’t, disclosing salaries can find who does need help.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#209

Post by jameshart » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

throw0099 wrote: post #78

senordevnyc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, we’re trading anecdotes? Well, I know a lot of people, including many involved in hiring at various large tech companies, including myself. I’m sure they have programs to encourage diversity in hiring, but I seriously doubt they’re telling you they “blatantly discriminate” against white men and that white men have to perform much better in an interview in order to be hired. That’s an incomplete and simplistic sto…

Referral bonuses for women and minorities, and especially female minorities, are 5x what they are for white men at my company. They may not say "go discriminate against white men," but they certainly say "we will pay you a lot more to get us somebody who isn't a white man." I'm someone who really likes having diverse engineering teams, but that sort of practice is pretty distasteful and obviously not meritocratic.

That seems like a weird policy. I’m not sure how a company can really justify ‘we made it more expensive for us to hire minority candidates who are referred by our existing staff’ as being a sound diversity practice.

In general referral bonuses are intended to provide a higher quality candidate pipeline at a lower price than a recruitment consultant, so I can see why throwing this incentive in there might seem like a good idea, but you need strong firewalls between the referral policy and the hiring decisionmaking to avoid perverse incentives. In particular it’s important the bonus doesn’t come out of the hiring team’s salary budget.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#210

Post by sktrdie » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

perfobotto wrote: post #192

I doubt most of the big earners will disclose their salary. It seems to be going in a way where mostly people that are in a less than optimal situation are gonna disclose their salary, so the whole thing is underestimating the situation

I think also lots of people that are underpaid are scared to disclose. Fearing a "you only make this much?" reaction.