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1000 True Fans? Try 100

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Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#201
post #199
post #3

IIRC the 1k true fans idea was walked back by its original author after they got feedback from industry folks describing how the model was basically impossible to implement in the real world. This holds 100% true to my experience in influencer marketing and esports. Monetizing fans is really hard on passion alone. You need to create valuable calls to action and continuously produce content in order to maintain their…

> Monetizing fans is really hard on passion alone. > ... you often can't monetize them at all without significant re-activation effort I find talk of monetising people extremely off-putting. Also (not meant as a personal attack), I do not want to be around or associate with people who talk like this.

What would you prefer it to be called? We can change the words around to suit our social sensibilities but at the end of the day, we're still talking about convincing people to spend some money. Nobody bats an eye if you ask for more money from your boss, but many people are under a lot of pressure not to try to be compensated fairly for consumer-facing work.

Making good content consistently is hard work, I personally have no moral qualms about a creator trying to make a living doing it.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#202
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Monetizing fans is really hard on passion alone. > ... you often can't monetize them at all without significant re-activation effort I find talk of monetising people extremely off-putting. Also (not meant as a personal attack), I do not want to be around or associate with people who talk like this.

What would you prefer it to be called? We can change the words around to suit our social sensibilities but at the end of the day, we're still talking about convincing people to spend some money. Nobody bats an eye if you ask for more money from your boss, but many people are under a lot of pressure not to try to be compensated fairly for consumer-facing work. Making good content consistently is hard work, I personall…

I think my main issue is the shift in focus away from a transaction (people paying for a product or service) to reducing people to simply being sources of money.

Also, the idea that fans or admirers should be converted into people who pay you money. My concept of a service like Patreon is that it's a way for people to give you money if they (independently) want to, rather than being pushed or cajoled to do so.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#204

s/fan/customer I feel like the comments here cover the main issues with this article. I kept flip-flopping between appreciating the article and disagreeing with it. The two main issues I have with it are: 1. $1000/year to provide value is a business, not a "passion" in the true sense. 2. Highlighting the outliers of a given platform discredits the concept as something that many people can achieve. "These fans expect…

I understand what you're getting at but I think the relationship with a 'creator' or artist feels much more personal than that of a business. There's more to this than a simple repeating customer/business transaction.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An economy is just a group of people all making resource allocation decisions. I have no idea why you’d want to exclude passion from the decision making process of the worlds billions of economic actors.

That is the definition of an economy in abstract - it is ignorant of the historical factors which have created this particular global economy, and it is ignorant of the large and small scale social dynamics influencing the economy and influenced by it. It is ignorant of the necessary rights, as they are formed today, to sustain the economy. It is ignorant of commodity fetishism and alienation, and the fact that an ec…

All economies are made exclusively of economic actors (which include every single living person) making resource allocation decisions. This is the basis of every conceivable economic system, including no system at all (which would just be the ultimate free market), and socialism (which is just a system where resource allocation decision making is taken away from individuals, and placed in the hands of a central authority). These resource allocation decisions include decisions that have no relation to money, and decision to allocate a finite resource is an economic decision, including decisions to devote time, effort or attention to something. Wanting topic of passion to be excluded from this system defies the laws of nature itself. However, I’ll assume that you’re taking the (ironically ignorant) position that economics is only about money. Even then the idea that “I wouldn’t want to derive value from things that I’m passionate about” or that “I wouldn’t want to provide value to those who produce things I’m passionate about” just completely defies any sense of reason.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#206

I feel like these numbers are skewed by the sex workers on Patreon offering subscription pornography. It'd be interesting to see if there's a difference between the numbers adult content creators see vs. everyone else.

I don't think people who create adult content should be excluded. It's a valid job which — like streaming, painting, or any other online content creation — just isn't for everyone.

Yeah I agree. I wasn’t suggesting that it is or should be illegal and banned. I’m just saying that the economics for that business are so different than every other creative and performing art that it really distorts what non-adult content creators can expect to make from their patrons.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented in detail on this a few months ago ... What Proziam wrote is a little off, at least as far as music goes. Hundreds of musicians/music vloggers are working full-time from Patreon/Adsense once they exceed 100,000 Youtube subscribers and upload weekly/biweekly and have 100+ Patrons. Patreon produces a reliable income stream (for rent, etc.) while Adsense fluctuates but adds up ($1,000 - $5,000/million views…

100 Patrons, even if they contribute well above average , say $25 ( after platform fees/expenses/taxes), is still only $2,500 per month. There are some places in the US where that wouldn't be liveable, let alone offer enough stability for a person to enjoy a stable lifestyle. Of course, if you live in a low cost of living area you can make things fly that otherwise wouldn't. But even with that consideration in mind,…

I'll go into some more detail so people can picture how it works in 2020 better.

100k subscribers is the gateway to really making it on YT.

Above that you start going self-viral, so some artists have snowballed very fast (in months) from 100k to 300k+. It's like they're on YT, but their channel is "their own private island" and takes on a life of its own.

1) US artists will need to live at home (or in a van) or be very frugal to make it with the numbers I provided - but it's doable, and they will get a lot of free gear.

And they'll be full-time musicians, which is living the dream for most.

However, low-COL artists can (and do) earn the average local salary, plus free gear. So they have it all figured out.

2) US (and European) musicians will have a hard time touring as the bandleader on that income, since it's pay-to-play now for non-headliners in the US, typically $500 per show, and often T-shirt sales are restricted (see Sarah Longfield's interviews for the details.)

So that means keep uploading on Patreon/YT, or have your sponsors/fans in each city put you up.

3) "Be your own label.", "Own your publishing.", etc.

The important thing to realize is that there is no label deal available for new musicians (the exception would be super-strong writers) in 2020, and even if you signed one, advances have to be repaid. And oh ya, "360 deals" go after your Patreon and YT/Adsense, publishing and show revenue now - just say no.

So go whole hog on Patreon/YT/Adsense (ie. be your own label) because it's not like there is another funding option for most people, aside from a few guys making it as contract performers (ie. paying their dues) for regional touring bands.

See Rhett Shull's YT channel to learn more about that - he's a road dog contract hired gun guitarist with a knack for YT vlogging. Hats off, man, and congrats on the 100+k subs!

Also see Yvette Young's (from San Jose) meteoric rise - she just got an Ibanez signature guitar in her 20's!

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An economy is just a group of people all making resource allocation decisions. I have no idea why you’d want to exclude passion from the decision making process of the worlds billions of economic actors.

Isn't an economy specifically about optimising resource allocation. The more general term being a financial system. I assume you're being purposefully terse, but just in case ... can you see how one might want to do an activity without considering 'could I charge people [more] to enjoy this with me, could I end this activity with less opportunity cost lost' and instead just be generous with something one loves and fr…

An economy is any system that involves the production, consumption and trade of goods. It’s simply a way of describing and analysing natural human behaviour. An economy doesn’t have to aspire towards any form of efficiency, it doesn’t have to involve money, or any form of payment. It doesn’t need to be governed, or subject to any form of authority. It is simply what happens when you have people consuming or utilizing anything that was produced by another person. The only way you could exercise a passion without any economic interactions is if you did so entirely by yourself, without the use of any goods or services produced by another person, and without sharing any of the value you may potentially be creating with any other person.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the definition of an economy in abstract - it is ignorant of the historical factors which have created this particular global economy, and it is ignorant of the large and small scale social dynamics influencing the economy and influenced by it. It is ignorant of the necessary rights, as they are formed today, to sustain the economy. It is ignorant of commodity fetishism and alienation, and the fact that an ec…

All economies are made exclusively of economic actors (which include every single living person) making resource allocation decisions. This is the basis of every conceivable economic system, including no system at all (which would just be the ultimate free market), and socialism (which is just a system where resource allocation decision making is taken away from individuals, and placed in the hands of a central autho…

>All economies are made exclusively of economic actors (which include every single living person) making resource allocation decisions

All economies are made of people, some of whom do not make resource allocation decisions (because they are unable to or prohibited). I see no reason to start talking in terms of the population of an economy rather than other factors first. Marx, for instance, used property and classes, because he noticed that individuals are born into pre-existing situations, as defined by the class and property structures of the day, and they do not shape the world freely as they see fit. It takes effort to individuate.

> including no system at all (which would just be the ultimate free market)

The "ultimate free market" very clearly has a "system" - it has private property rights, separation of the labourer from the product she makes during the production process, the majority of labour being waged labour, and the general economic goal of capital accumulation. If the free market really meant "no system", but still a reality, then we would have observed it in the most basic societies. Anthropologists have found no evidence of that claim.

>which is just a system where resource allocation decision making is taken away from individuals, and placed in the hands of a central authority

No political philosopher uses this definition; most forms of socialism (theoretically, anyway) are democratic, in which allocation decision making is given to the people, to a higher degree than it is in a capitalist society. Finally, in such a system, individuals have the greatest degree of control over capital, not just labour allocation (through which capital is influenced only directly).

>and decision to allocate a finite resource is an economic decision, including decisions to devote time, effort or attention to something

It is not purely an economic decision, it is also a moral and practical one. Only the economist, strangely, conceives any and all time as a pure "resource" to be allocated around. The view that activity is equal to allocation of finite resources ignores the reasons why people actually perform various activities. Sure, you could subsume every motivation into allocation of finite resources, but the physicist could go further and subsume every interaction into the interactions between atoms. Why should I (or anyone) prefer your level of abstraction rather than saying it is too restricted (e.g. as the physicist would say) or saying it is too wide (e.g. as the sociologist would say)?

>Wanting topic of passion to be excluded from this system defies the laws of nature itself.

Marx noted in the 19th century that economists, like the priests, have a preference for speaking of their ideological view as "natural law", that previous systems were "unnatural", that future possible systems are "unnatural". He realized that this tactic ensures that nobody can question the foundation of the concepts (atomistic individualism, Hobbesian warfare, resource allocation, the origin of money, capital, power, property) since that would be to question "nature" itself.

>just completely defies any sense of reason.

It defies purely economic reason. Today we see many people and hobbyists taking such an "unreasonable" stance, from charity and open source workers to musicians. People, as it turns out, are not rational economic actors (the "resaon" you speak of is a prescriptivism from neoclassical economics), nor do they judge their time as a resource ("time is money" is a mantra that only seems to apply during the business day). There is no evidence that counting time primarity as an economic resource was prevalent in previous societies.

On that note, unless you're monetizing the time you spend posting on HN, you are completely defying any sense of reason. Either that, or you can tell me about your spreadsheet of resource allocation for your day down to the hour by the time you next make a comment, and the calculated opportunity costs associated with each hour.

Re: 1000 True Fans? Try 100

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obsessed with her vagina Who has a basic misunderstanding on what exactly a vagina is. https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/goops-netflix-series...

This is what decades of de-prioritizing education funding looks like.

I think this is more what years of teaching people the wrong things entirely looks like. There was an opinion piece in the New York Times of all places that equated criticism of that show with misogyny because 'women in particular have been mocked, reviled, and murdered for maintaining knowledge and practices that frightened, confused and confounded “the authorities.”' https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/03/opinion/goop-gwyneth-palt... Like, this is an argument that they expect the most educated and informed members of American society to buy, and given what we've been teaching people maybe they're right.
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