An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#201

Post by aqsalose » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

Suppose I want to research a $topic, and get recognition for my research. As a recent graduate or soon-to-graduate undergrad student the traditional path to "doing research for the public good of the mankind and personal glory as a scientist" in academia is much more salient and easy to take than in private firms.

Sure, I maybe have the mental faculties to become an engineer. Do I want do so, however? If I go to work in a firm, I need to do what the owner of the firm wants to in exchange for the monetary and other rewards. In academia, you write grant applications and research proposals for something you want to do (or to be practical, something you and you advisor agree on, but usually the opportunities are much larger than "client wants a webshop").

And what I would be doing at a $firm? Building more applications and other products and optimized adverts of products for other people, when majority of my free time I try to avoid unnecessary apps, adverts and consumption of useless products that waste natural resources of our planet for no good reason at all?

Sure, there are some companies who offer opportunities at doing basic research, but a) getting into those jobs you need to be exceptionally exceptional (getting into a PhD program, mere "exceptional" is enough), and b) would I really, really want to work there? I am reasonably sure that I have less ethical dilemmas if I am funded by a government or foundation to do research at a public university than getting a paycheck from $big_name_company, to produce value for $big_name_company.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#202

Post by downerending » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #101

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

> and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? > in the care of poorly paid strangers Or you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development, who will ensure your children gets age- and stage-appropriate stimulation, as well as socialization with other children in a safe…

> you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development...

That sounds wonderful, but it's economically impossible, except for the rich. The cost would be near or exceed what most people clear working a job.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#203

Post by wruza » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #155

ixtli wrote: post #105

> When you ask women why they left, the number one reason they cite is balancing work/life responsibilities — which as far as I can tell is a euphemism for family concerns. At least in america women are, in this way, almost always asked to choose between their career and having children. This is asymmetrical with men's experience because whether or not they are comfortable with it, its considered normal for them to s…

Can confirm that I know multiple women who work less then they imagined for themselves or want to, cause their husbands basically finds it more fun to be in work and cant be arsed to go home. Their resentment is quite real. Their actions looks like choice, until they trust you well enough to vent to you.

That is often true. But the frequent prequel is also “I want a baby” originating from a woman. I don’t have un-anecdata too, but it happened to me, to my buddies and to my male family members. As men may or may not definitely, consciously want kids and do related work, at least we need to bin resentments into two buckets (fail of promise vs. fail of expectation) and evaluate them separately.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#204

Post by narrator » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #173

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia The first thing I thought as well. When you read all these horror stories about burned out phd students, why is anyone doing this? If a woman in STEM wants to combine family and work (or a man or anyone else really) there are many jobs in the industry that are actually relatively 9-5, and pay really well. I don't un…

You can also be working on stuff that has no impact whatsoever. There are a lot of physics PHDs working in cosmology trying to figure what's going on on the other side of the universe. Sure they are doing some interesting engineering setting up experiments, but if they find the answer to their scientific question they have to find something new to research and get grants for which is a big hassle.

I think the joy of pure research is that you only have to engage in occasional bullshit academic politics and otherwise have a completely pure existence in a monastery of scientific spiritual ideological purity of sorts. This is probably why some of the most sought after jobs under communism were non-political professorships at Universities, like being a math professor. Many of the post-soviet oligarchs were professors at universities during the soviet union times.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#205

Post by jfengel » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #117

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems to be typical sexism: there's work at work which is paid, and work at home which is not. Men do little enough of the latter, that doing the paid work isn't a problem. Women do such a large part of the former, that they feel the need to chose between which part get done. Sure, the positive way to change this, is to reduce the unpaid work (child care professionals are paid, c…

It's notable that in general, even when paid, "women's work" is less valuable than men's work. The younger a student is, the more likely they are to be taught by a woman, and the less they are likely to make -- but is teaching a high schooler harder than teaching a first grader? Cleaning, child care, and nursing are all both female-coded and low-paying.

Women are often pushed towards professions involving some kind of care -- and it's expected that they'll want it because they have an emotional attachment rather than for money. Being a homemaker is the limit case: absolute attachment and zero pay.

I wonder what would happen if we simply made the purely numerical correction of counting homemaking in GDP. Would we value it more? Would it make it more attractive to men? Would we develop better infrastructure?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#206

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #120

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #32

>> I’ve got a big scholarship, and a lot of people supporting me to give me the best shot at an academic career — a career I dearly want. But, I also want a family — maybe two or three kids Oh. Up to this point I was keeping notes with my criticism of this article, but this caused me to stop and reconsider. If I may advise the author, I understand how difficult it is to balance life decisions that seem to be at odds,…

>How is that not sexist? How is that not the sexism that's keeping women from advancing their careers in STEM academia? Why should the academy structure itself so that women who choose to put their attention into their families do not have a career impact? If academic positions are necessarily zero-sum, it seems impossible to correct for this without seriously unfair negative externalities? How is it that the biases…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#207

Post by howling » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

bArray wrote: post #178

I think people have been hinting towards the point that it's generally maternity and not sexism that mostly creates the differences in career progression. Of course there was a time in history where sexism played a major role, but I think that in modern times this is mostly gone (although I know of recent cases). We can take several actions to balance the books, but the important point I would like to ask is: Do we r…

I think people are arguing that to be fair, time spent on raising children should be shared equally between father and mother.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#208

Post by icandoit » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #184

icandoit wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have also been the case, that before industrialization, metal smelting, and anything-faster-than-walking the world was inherently safe. Daycare only become necessary once transportation, tools that could cut, and exposed toxins became abundant. Imagine a world were all parents let their children roam the streets from dawn til dinner, child-right-of-way, and any harm befalling a child was universally met with p…

> It may have also been the case, that before industrialization, metal smelting, and anything-faster-than-walking the world was inherently safe. I would disagree: historically, kids had to cope with other threats - illnesses, toxic or otherwise deadly animals, general accidents that are "tiny nothings" today could cripple or even kill you back then because there were no antibiotics... Back 200 years ago, this only wo…

I would expect that if wages wise, that screens-per-person would increase and children-per-person would continue to decrease.

Housing, healthcare, and actual-cost-of-food (because eating out is on the rise) are all increasing beyond any realistic hope of political reform. Best to optimize for children at the expense of any dream of middle class comfort.

My parents had a low income and made 2 kids work. I expect to stretch things thinner than they had to even with our middle class-ish income. (Most meals are homemade and vegetarian for example).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#209

Post by balls187 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

hurricanetc wrote: post #144

balls187 wrote: post #72

My note to the author, enjoy your career. If and when you feel ready to start a family, you will. And if it doesn't happen, you'll be okay too. Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women. Perhaps STEM women who are early career (24-28) would benefit from meeting mothers (both who are in STEM and not in STEM careers) who had children at age 35+. > ...Women who stay in academia expect to marry later, and…

>Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women. It's just a biological reality. It is certainly possible to have a healthy birth after the age of 35 but the rate of health problems and birth defects don't go up linearly with age. The rate of pregnancy loss is 35% after the age of 35 and is above 50% after the age of 45. This is just reality. If women want to have multiple children it is wise to start befo…

The statistics do not tell the whole story.

A reason I suggest young women speak with women who started families mid-late career would hear actual experiences, giving perspective that it's not as bleak as the statistics show.

We had two children, both healthy, after mom was 35.

We also had a pregnancy that didn't go to term.

I surmise women might take some comfort in knowing that pregnancy complications are normal.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#210

Post by abathur » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #198

abathur wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it helps if I knock the particulars out of your case: Why should structure itself ? Do you have some clear argument for why members of an organization aren't entitled to participate in shaping it?

I don't see how my point served to excluded a member of the academy weighing in. Note that my question was specific in the context of a zero-sum industry. I'm happy to see reasoned arguments that address this point.

You didn't expressly exclude it, but weighing it answers your question.

The academy should structure itself in the way its members decide it should be structured.