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Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

businessinsider.com

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Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#201

Post by buboard »

intuitionist wrote: post #26

Altman and Yang are a natural fit because they’re both very invested (Altman literally so) in the narrative that automation is coming for huge numbers of jobs. But the economic statistics just don’t back this up. Total factor productivity, a (rough) measure of the technological contribution to economic production, is growing considerably more slowly than it was during the early 2000s, and much more slowly than during…

Yeah but I think Yang knows that , and he uses UBI as a symbolic image of the fact that good jobs are going to become increasingly hard to find and that makes most people anxious. It's sort of how trump used "the wall" to appeal to the anxieties of people with insecure jobs. It's a good focus point though, that appeals to reasonable people more than "just tax the rich" (which is shortsighted anyway; what 's the plan when the rich are no more?). My current bet (as a non-american) is that if the democrats manage to select Yang, he will win, otherwise it's going to be a much worse trump 2nd term

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#202

Post by hanniabu »

jostylr wrote: post #103
GarrisonPrime wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there’s the behavioral factor to consider. Will UBI truly relieve pressure and give people a hand up? Or will it result in a large swathe of the population dropping out of the labor force and accepting a life of poverty and marginalization? Could some UBI pushers actually see the latter as the true goal? Ask any Native American how empowering a UBI-esque system worked out for them. Not that I’m rejecting the ide…

There is a Native American example with UBI (North Carolina, casino-based UBI) and it sounds like it immediately improved outcomes and did not impact working: https://thecorrespondent.com/4664/why-do-the-poor-make-such-... Also, would you stop working if you got 12k a year for free? How much do the wealthy make in dividends a year? Do they stop working? Maybe to ensure that the wealthy continue to work, we should pre…

As a personal anecdote, I would love volunteering with building homes, helping elderly, or helping animal conservation and rehabilitation efforts. I would also like to work on some inventions (I'm a mechanical engineer). However, volunteering doesn't pay anything and inventing something is really risky, so as a result I can't contribute in such ways to society and instead am working at a job I hate contributing to my deteriorating quality of life and mental health (i feel like a slave working towards having enough money to buy myself from my owner).

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#203

Post by coredog64 »

aetherson wrote: post #128
hudon wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> money is power Money isn’t power. Power is power. If Putin became bankrupt tonight, he’d still be one of the most powerful people on earth tomorrow morning. Power is the capacity to have others do what you want, including handing you their money when you need it. Case in point: how many million-dollar lottery winners ended up having any nontrivial influence on their community or state? Nearly 0.

Holding all else equal, of course it is the case that giving someone more money increases their ability to something done in the political plane. But it seems to be an article of faith in many people that money can be very simply translated into unlimited amounts of political power in a way that is I think not supported by the evidence.

Which is why Steve Forbes won the presidency in 2000 and Bloomberg or Steyer will take it this year and hold their inaugural ball at the Amazon campus in LIC. :)

As you say, money helps. But there limits to what money can do.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#204

Post by rpedela »

freehunter wrote: post #180
shrubble wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you name them, please? Rents in boring Ohio cities for example, are still $650 for a 1 bedroom unit.

I think they meant "in the hundreds" not "between $100 and $200". Rent for less than $1000.

Yes exactly, thanks.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#205

Post by hanniabu »

grzm wrote: post #197
hanniabu wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which brings up his quality of life stance. It honestly feels like we're paid slaves waiting until we have enough to buy ourselves from our owners.

I find this perspective problematic. I understand it feels like a lack of freedom—indeed you are constrained from doing whatever you want. As an example, imagine you are on your own, completely outside of society, out of contact with others. You’d need to build and maintain shelter. You’d need to forage or grow food. You’re not free to do whatever you want, until you have accumulated enough resources to not need to d…

That's a horrible comparison. If I didn't need to have a job I would be volunteering helping the elderly, doing construction work, helping with animal rehabilitation, inventing things (I'm a mechanical engineer), etc. I can't contribute in any of these ways I would enjoy because they either don't enough or are risky.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#206

Post by brillas »

vorpalhex wrote: post #198
hanniabu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing nothing may cause an even worse situation.

The human race has existed a long time without UBI.

just as it existed for centuries, millenia, without penicillin and without quinine. This isn’t an argument; a history of subsistence doesn’t mean we can’t think of ways to make it all better.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#207

Post by ianai »

sethammons wrote: post #159

I like the idea of freeing people to be able to quit and get a new job any time, where quitting today means a real threat of losing one's home, transportation, or ability to eat (never mind fueling the cycle of debt that keeps so many down). I think it would be a net benefit if people could tell oppressive employers to fuck off without fear. However, a welfare state is a real thing to be worried about. My sister work…

You can’t draw wide ranging conclusions from that sort of UBI. They’re part of a nation that exists within another nation. They’re facing all sorts of pressures and incentives that would not be present for a US wide UBI.

The need and requirement for a UBI is real. Private sector is simply never going to find a job for everyone who needs to survive. We offer no other way for people to survive. This isn’t a balance sheet calculation. It’s society saying “hey, we can’t just let our own people, as an individual of our society, have only one means of survival. That just creates too many pressures which lead to their suffering and exploitation.”

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#208

Post by banads »

How can a US Dollar based UBI solve the problems of automation when the Super Admins of the US Dollar are explicitly pursuing the opposite goal?

According to the Federal Reserve website, 2/3 of their main goals are:

1. Seeking to maximize employment

2. Maintaining stable prices

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/what-economic-goals-does...

Automation and ephemeralization minimize employment and prices, but the money system seeks the opposite. Until these contradictions are reconciled, how can a US Dollar based UBI not fail?

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#209

Post by leetcrew »

sethammons wrote: post #159

I like the idea of freeing people to be able to quit and get a new job any time, where quitting today means a real threat of losing one's home, transportation, or ability to eat (never mind fueling the cycle of debt that keeps so many down). I think it would be a net benefit if people could tell oppressive employers to fuck off without fear. However, a welfare state is a real thing to be worried about. My sister work…

part of the idea of UBI is that it would replace current or future (hypothetical) welfare benefits. at least in theory, it seems better for people on both sides of the equation. for the "producers", it would replace a hodge-podge of inefficient and inscrutable welfare programs with a single number that can be adjusted up/down and easily understood. for those on "the dole", it would be a much more respectful way of providing aid. instead of getting funny money that can only be spent on certain items at the grocery store and having to apply for a tax credit at the end of the year, they just get $x every month to spend as they see fit.

the complacency angle is worth considering, but when I see how much money we waste to (for example) manufacture at least one part of a spaceship in every single US state, I wonder if we wouldn't come out ahead by just paying most of the people for doing nothing and then manufacturing the parts where it actually makes sense.

the main thing I fear is what it would do to rent. I don't understand enough about economics to know how much of a problem this is, but naively it seems like UBI would just shift rents upward in a tight housing market.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#210

Post by malandrew »

coredog64 wrote: post #194
hacknat wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that VAT by itself is regressive, but coupled with UBI it is not even close. Relative to their wealth, Rich people, effectively, do not even pay income tax. The bulk of income tax is paid by the middle class. Does that seem fair to you? I agree with you that money is power, but you are not going to stop the existence of Billionaires and Trillionaires. That would need to be a coordinated global effort…

> Relative to their wealth, Rich people, effectively, do not even pay income tax. Can you explain this, as this doesn’t appear to be backed up by IRS stats on effective rates & total revenue.

Relative in the sense that it’s inconsequential relative to capital gains taxes. The very rich don’t make incomes. Nexos for example earns $88k a year in income.
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