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Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

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Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#201

Post by solidasparagus »

shantly wrote: post #196
solidasparagus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.

Mandating that companies stop buying cobalt from suppliers who don't document things well is absolutely a legitimate, non-pie-in-the-sky way to effect change. The idea is that demand for documented cobalt will go up, prices for it will also go up, poorly-documented cobalt producers will have lower demand for their product and their profits will be harmed, the ones capable of fixing their shit so they can sell more-ex…

That is not a new idea, even in the DRC and it has been an abject failure. Conflict gold, diamonds and coltan still flow out of DRC despite efforts to not buy undocumented minerals. In highly corrupt and impoverished places, documentation doesn't mean anything. One bribe of a few hundred dollars and your Congolese conflict mineral is now clean, documented Rwandan mineral.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#202

Post by _bxg1 »

hnburnsy wrote: post #181

This feels like the episode of the The Good Place where they figure out the point system to get to the good place doesn't work because today's world is complicated... >Michael uses the example of someone buying roses. A man hundreds of years ago got a lot of Good Place points because he grew and picked his own roses to give to his grandmother. However, when another man got roses for his grandmother, he lost points. I…

The problem is that this argument is a spectrum. For a consumer, who is (mostly) powerless to change the system, it might be (mostly) valid. But on the other end of the spectrum, the CEOs who actually could make a difference use the same argument to wash their hands. "It's all just business, the world is complicated, it's impossible to be perfect."

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#203

Post by darawk »

celticmusic wrote: post #138
solidasparagus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.

Ok, so I guess you'll be going to prison too, then? Or do you not own a smart phone?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#204

Post by shantly »

solidasparagus wrote: post #201
shantly wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandating that companies stop buying cobalt from suppliers who don't document things well is absolutely a legitimate, non-pie-in-the-sky way to effect change. The idea is that demand for documented cobalt will go up, prices for it will also go up, poorly-documented cobalt producers will have lower demand for their product and their profits will be harmed, the ones capable of fixing their shit so they can sell more-ex…

That is not a new idea, even in the DRC and it has been an abject failure. Conflict gold, diamonds and coltan still flow out of DRC despite efforts to not buy undocumented minerals. In highly corrupt and impoverished places, documentation doesn't mean anything. One bribe of a few hundred dollars and your Congolese conflict mineral is now clean, documented Rwandan mineral.

Efforts, but have companies been made to pay a cost for failing to source "ethically", even when they say "well gee we tried and it's just really hard"? Things tend to get more serious when money is on the line, rather than just PR. Doing it right would clearly take verification, not just documentation, which means requiring access for outside inspectors.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#205

Post by dgudkov »

papreclip wrote: post #169
qaq wrote: post #16

I like how people get outraged at US tech giants but gracefully ignore the fact that Glencore which actually is the beneficiary of exploiting the children is based in Europe. It's no small target either with annual revenue of 219.8 billion in 2018 vs Google's 136.

People really seem to be sharpening the axe for our big tech companies these days. Personally I find it disturbing. These companies are a river of prosperity for our people, especially software developers

Big tech companies maybe don't put kids into mines, but they have other ethical issues (privacy, manipulation with public opinion, etc). I don't think anyone can reliably tell that their issues are more ethical or less ethical than child slavery.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#206

Post by crispyambulance »

solidasparagus wrote: post #132
mcv wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour. Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way. So these…

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

> There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

Not entirely true.

There are tools like SiliconExpert which track "conflict mineral issues" in the supply chain. This tool or others like it are used by the tech giants to screen their supply chain for this as well as other more mundane problems. It's a standard part of compliance engineering (https://www.siliconexpert.com/conflict-minerals-compliance-d...).

If a component/material gets flagged in a tool like that, it certainly is fair-game to go after a manufacturer & supplier for knowingly profiting at the expense of human rights. The penalties should be severe.

Yes, there's some uncertainty. But once exploitation becomes known, it's not THAT hard to trace it and stop at least the largest supply-chain users from using it without consequence.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#207

Post by solidasparagus »

FussyZeus wrote: post #189
solidasparagus wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. Until you can do that, offering 'stop buying' as a solution is a waste of time.

> It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. "Realistic" is determined entirely by the values of the overarching system. The fate of the people at the long tail of the supply lines isn't valued. That's the single, solitary reason that this shit is still happening. Change that, and the system will adapt. The mines will get better, or they will be replaced with other mi…

How would you suggest we start? Real, concrete steps please.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#208

Post by dls2016 »

hnburnsy wrote: post #181

This feels like the episode of the The Good Place where they figure out the point system to get to the good place doesn't work because today's world is complicated... >Michael uses the example of someone buying roses. A man hundreds of years ago got a lot of Good Place points because he grew and picked his own roses to give to his grandmother. However, when another man got roses for his grandmother, he lost points. I…

In other words, there’s no such thing as ethical consumption.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#210

Post by Nasrudith »

DSingularity wrote: post #47
shkkmo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search shows that past lawsuits against Nestle and other companies for child labor in their supply chain listed consumers as the plaintiffs claiming damage from false advertising and non -disclosure [1]. These cases have ended up being dismissed. The difference is that in this case the children and their families are the actual plaintiffs which presumably changes the legal merits. I still suspect that this ca…

Raise public awareness? I think they are seeking remedy. Sad that the courts are so slanted in the favor of corporate interests. Why do these cases get dismissed?

Because they are seeking remedy from the wrong parties in a fungible market without proof of more direct involvement. It being in "corporate interest" doesn't mean it is wrong. To be frank they are acting a lot like extortionists.
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