Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#201

Post by OnlineGladiator » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 12:27 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #200

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. From your perspective you've already discredited my argument, and from mine I still believe what I said. Where do we go from here if we can't agree to disagree? I'm sincerely trying to have a conversation here. I feel like you're frustrated because you're sure I'm wrong, and you're unable to convince me I'm wrong. But that's just the way the world works. In fact, it's a cornerstone of the very system you're so…

I'm not trying to change your mind as much as discredit your arguments. i.e. you are free to peddle whatever wacko theory you want to, but the specific arguments you try to give weight to your theory have been shown in this thread to not be very strong. If you think your theory is still valid without any good arguments for it, you are free to continue spreading them. You will just not be taken very seriously by peopl…

> I'm not trying to change your mind as much as discredit your arguments.

For what it's worth, I actually appreciate this - even though it probably doesn't seem that way.

> You will just not be taken very seriously by people who consider fact-based arguments as a foundation for reasoned arguments, which incidentally are many people in this particular forum.

The upvotes on my comments suggest people found what I had to say interesting. Of course that doesn't make me right :)

Cheers.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#202

Post by vpcs111fm » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 3:33 AM UTC

Don't worry. Huawei barely gets to manage the fund itself from Chinese banks. And the moment that US DOJ launches secondary boycott on Huawei and its financial affiliates & financiers, believe me -- it won't last months.

The most important thing is the financial power. The current wrestle between China and the US (entailing Huawei and Chinese trade deals) is all about the US wanting to forcefully open up Chinese financial markets -- which China will never do.

It would be exciting to see how the new trade deals would unfold.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#203

Post by fluffything » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

dtwest wrote: post #185

fluffything wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike say in the PC world, where the dominant OS/Software stack has an almost impenetrable reliance on x86 Huawei also makes its own x86 chips, GPUs, and even FPGAs (e.g. TPU-like systems), and while Huawei Cloud still runs other vendors hardware, it's becoming more and more "Huawei-hardware only" each quarter. I think the US has not realized yet how good it had it, and how much it has screwed things up. The EU, R…

Do you think China wasn't aware of how well the US had it? They had no intention of letting it stay that way. The US did not force them into it, they wanted to do this all along. Recent political action may have sped things up, but this has all been in the works for a long time.

I fully agree, but I don't think that getting Huawei "banned" (IP use rights blocked, etc.) was some sort of chess master grand move by the Chinese government. The US literally served them the excuse to accelerate this dramatically in a silver platter.

The US had its reasons, but other countries have been able to handle Huawei much better. E.g. the UK allegedly [0] found "backdoors" in Huawei hardware for the government, they let Huawei know, Huawei said "sorry about that", and they fixed it.

[0]: Huawei argued that the "backdoor" was actually debugging software, and the software was verified to only use Telnet..

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#204

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

lsc wrote: post #110

phkahler wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it sure looks like my country is trying to make things harder for China, and is paying the price of making things harder for workers in my own country. Not sure if you've noticed, but manufacturing is starting to come back in the US. Industrial automation and skilled trades jobs are starting to be a thing again. These are solid middle class jobs that often dont require a degree. Its coming at the expense of some p…

>Not sure if you've noticed, but manufacturing is starting to come back in the US. Industrial automation and skilled trades jobs are starting to be a thing again. These are solid middle class jobs that often dont require a degree. Its coming at the expense of some pain in other areas, but it might be an overall positive. My understanding is that most of the really good paying manufacturing jobs aren't coming back; th…

I said automation and skilled trades jobs. The people who build, program, and maintain the automation for manufacturing. Some of them are union and some are not, but they all pay decent. I didnt mean the basic assembly line jobs, but those are needed too.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#205

Post by phkahler » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #128

lsc wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US lost a LOT of capability over the last 20 years citation needed... My understanding was that US manufacturing output has been steadily growing (even if employment has been falling) for all of that time.

That's a common belief and it's wrong. https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1250...

We lost the ability to make CRTs and subsequently never gained LCD and Oled manufacturing. We lost the leading edge in IC manufacturing. We lost the ability to put people in orbit. Were in danger of not being able to make passenger planes.

Sure, all of that can be turned around, but the trend is toward losing capability to do advanced things.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#206

Post by babayega2 » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 11:37 PM UTC

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #174

fluffything wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably. Snowden showed that every phone in the USA is used for surveillance by the NSA. I don't have any reason to expect China to be any different.

Exactly. Yet I found NSA surveillance INFINITELY less dangerous than China's.

As a US citizen maybe. But you know a lot of countries all over the world have more suffered under the US influence than that of China?

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#207

Post by t0ddbonzalez » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 11:44 AM UTC

fluffything wrote: post #178

t0ddbonzalez wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Right now, e.g., the EU is on the "let's ban all Huawei products, China spies on us!" boat' Really? Citation please. Mike Pompeo's been going around Europe threatening dire consequences for any country which uses Huawei tech ("We won't work with allies that use Huawei equipment in their 5G networks", etc.), but I haven't heard of any calls for a ban at EU level... Can you show me some proof that the EU wants to ba…

There aren't any EU level bans - I don't think the EU government has authority for that. What currently exist is a lot of controversy around using Huawei in Europe: * Huawei products banned from being used by all of Spain's Department of Defense projects and personnel: https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/e4ntuk/huawei_smartp... * Angela Merkel Faces Part revolt over allowing Huawei to build 5G: https://www.dw.com…

Exactly. There is no EU call to ban Huawei infrastructure, so I'm mystified as to why you claimed 'the EU is on the "let's ban all Huawei products, China spies on us!" boat'.

The links you posted show that government departments in a couple of EU countries refuse to use Huawei, nothing more...

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#208

Post by fluffything » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:29 PM UTC

t0ddbonzalez wrote: post #207

fluffything wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't any EU level bans - I don't think the EU government has authority for that. What currently exist is a lot of controversy around using Huawei in Europe: * Huawei products banned from being used by all of Spain's Department of Defense projects and personnel: https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/e4ntuk/huawei_smartp... * Angela Merkel Faces Part revolt over allowing Huawei to build 5G: https://www.dw.com…

Exactly. There is no EU call to ban Huawei infrastructure, so I'm mystified as to why you claimed 'the EU is on the "let's ban all Huawei products, China spies on us!" boat'. The links you posted show that government departments in a couple of EU countries refuse to use Huawei, nothing more...

I'm not sure I follow you. My claim means that there is the opinion in the EU that Huawei should be banned. For some reason you understand that as "The EU banned Huawei". That's not what I claimed, and I have no idea how you get from one to the other.