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Help me ask why you didn't just

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Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#201

Post by [deleted] »

Shish2k wrote: post #186
AmericanChopper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…

Is "Why don't you just use sshd?" actually objectively more useful than "Would there be any tradeoffs using sshd here?"

[deleted]

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#202

Post by rkangel »

jmartrican wrote: post #20

Either they tried sshd or they didnt. If they did try it, then they have a good response ready to go no matter how you ask. The issue here is if they did not try it. The longer they have worked on it, the more gently I would make the suggestion towards sshd. If they have worked on it for their whole life, I wouldn't provide any help unless asked to and only limited to what they have asked me to do. If they have worke…

But you're missing half of the value of the interaction.

Generally when I'm asking this question, it's not because I have any expectation that they should have used sshd, it's because I want to understand the design tradeoffs that led to building X alternative. It's a learning exercise for me.

If I'm chatting to the Nobel Prize winner in not using sshd, I want to learn something from them, but if I'm not careful I come across as sounding like I disagree with them (I personally tend towards the 'three sentences of pre-amble' approach).

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#203

Post by AmericanChopper »

Shish2k wrote: post #186
AmericanChopper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…

Is "Why don't you just use sshd?" actually objectively more useful than "Would there be any tradeoffs using sshd here?"

Both of those comments are actually not great, but at least the first one has the benefit of being direct. Really the question you’re asking is something like ‘you’re deviating from an established design pattern here, why?’. It’s essential to communicate that you either don’t understand a decisions they’ve made, or that you have some particular reason to question a decision they’ve made. Beating around the bush dilutes that message, will usually just end up wasting time, and will often seem condescending. If your team can’t deal with good faith criticism in peer review, then you have a problem with your team culture, not a problem with improperly concealed criticism.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#204

Post by rkangel »

tylerjwilk00 wrote: post #141

I disagree with the article premise. If I say, "Why don't you just X?" It's short hand for: - This is the first solution I thought of - I am sure you already tried this - Since you probably already tried it, why didn't it work? It's about learning. I don't think most people are so fragile and insecure that you can't ask them about their problem space.

That's your (and my) shorthand for those meanings, and my intention in the conversation, but based on a large sample over the years, that isn't how a large percentage of people interpret it.

If 0.1% of people interpret a statement in a way that I didn't mean, it's probably their fault. If 40% do, then that's my fault.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#206

Post by swift532 »

jodrellblank wrote: post #193
carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

The article is trying to ask "assuming I don't know better than the developer, and SSHD genuinely wasn't the right fit, how can I enquire about the reasons without seeming critical?" Your comment comes across as the opposite; "without knowing or caring about the reasons, how can I communicate that I know better and that SSHD should have been used - but dodge looking smug by asking it opaquely?" > Why was sshd not use…

To be frank, those hypothetical answers seem very hostile and I wouldn't want to work in an environment where communication works this way.

Instead of saying "of course there would be" there could be a bit of a deeper discussion and the two people could figure out the best solution together. It's always supposed to be people against a problem, not people against people.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#207

Post by hanoz »

There's no reason to be jumping straight in with "why" in this situation at all, one can perfectly reasonably ask "have you tried using sshd".

Why doesn't the author just try putting it that way?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#208

Post by ximm »

d--b wrote: post #158

The problem here is that the author assumes that the person he is addressing is a total moron for not using sshd, so he is afraid that his question is going to be badly taken. Most people when asked “why didn’t you just xxx” would answer in 3 ways: 1. Oh shit, you’re right, I’m such an idiot... oh well... 2. Because yyy 3. I don’t know xxx, can you show me? The issue is that people feel the intention behind your ques…

But what if the person actually is a moron or -- maybe more likely -- just really insecure. Just because a person is a moron doesn't make it right to treat them badly.

But yes, I really agree with your comment: This is not usually an issue if you have a well developed relationship to that person. But if the context is still undecided, that's when the phrasing can really decide which way your relationship is going.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#209

Post by icebraining »

teekert wrote: post #119

I would feel offended if anyone would feel the need to go easy on me, just say what you think. And if you are right I will be eternally grateful for being taught a new efficient trick. Do I look like such a weak person to you that you feel like you have to handle my self esteem with silk gloves? Thanks for the insult. And what is it with this 2 intentions? The third is the obvious correct one where I'm not familiar w…

> I would feel offended if anyone would feel the need to go easy on me

"go easy on me" means "condescend", so you're essentially doing the same as the people mentioned: feeling offended because they perceive condescension from the speaker.

> Do I look like such a weak person to you that you feel like you have to handle my self esteem with silk gloves?

> Making things up in your head

The phrase he came up with doesn't actually state that he is treating you with silk gloves; that's an implication you're deriving (in your head), just like those people are deriving another implication from the original phrase.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#210

Post by beaker52 »

rkangel wrote: post #197
AmericanChopper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…

I'm aware of an unofficial convention in some US government departments - if you have a small round green sticker on your pass, then you are opting in as someone who can handle un-sugar coated discussion. It's a great system - you occasionally see someone pause momentarily to check that everyone in the group has a sticker before saying "well, that was a clusterfuck wasn't it".

I want this to be true
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