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Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

clearerthinking.org

201–210 of 355 posts

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#201
>Felix, you always leave your dirty socks on the floor! It’s disgusting! Clean this up before you do anything else.

>Felix, when I see two balls of soiled socks under the coffee table, I feel irritated because I want more order in the rooms that we share in common - would you be willing to put your socks in the washing machine?

These two sentences convey the same information. The speaker finds the sock to be out of order, which is a disgust reaction in some, irritation in others. It also communicates that this event has happened more than once, though it is only implied in the second text. The only explicit difference is the demand to do it immediately.

I can understand why people perceive it to be manipulative, it implies a feelings cost to the speaker if the socks are not picked up that is described to be Felix's responsibility. The first speaker makes no comment about Felix's responsibility over his feelings, but instead simply states that the fact that socks are out makes him feel disgusted with no further feelings based implications.

The first speaker makes a clear and overbearing command (assuming this is some social interaction and not a job) to drop everything that Felix is doing and clean up. That is easy to identify and rebel against, it implies no feelings cost, no cost to the speaker, just a disagreement over actionable orders. The second speaker implies a feelings cost that she is has handed responsibility over to Felix. That can feel manipulative if you're not used to negotiating over the impact actions have on feelings. Negotiating over feelings ends up being the same as negotiating over spoken orders. A competent person must be able to deal with both speakers.

Describing words as violence fundamentally undermines the "old" (aka what I grew up with) liberal western order that was do whatever you want as long as it brings no harm. If you escalate "direct orders" to the level of "harm" you're requiring authority to govern speech to protect from harm rather than a liberal 'stick-and-stones' attitude we used to enjoy. An endless disappointment, to say the least.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#202

I've read "Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life" and found it helpful in personal & work communication. I _hate_ the name, though. I don't want to suggest to someone that they read about non-violent communication because that suggests they're being violent when they're not. I'd prefer almost any other name. Some better names: "observational communication", "non-judgmental communication", "empathetic communica…

It's a child of the 60s and with all that was going on quite fitting in that timeframe. Since then it's been corporized with trainers worldwide going for certifications to be allowed to use the name. (Another sign of the time, this time more modern.) They won't change it due to their organizational structure. It's sort of like a brand office with a lot of freelancers on the side. What further strengthens this is that they seem to think Marshall Rosenberg is a hero and he is still alive.

I actually love NVC, went to several trainings where I was quite the outlier and had to swallow twice before asking my firm to pay for it. A more corporate branding would be benificial for my part of the market.

Less qualitative (imho) communication theories get pushed by corporations I've worked at, but the main selling point is that these courses are integrated. You get a slick trainer or two, they use actors for sessions, they have shiny branded materials, perhaps a website for a brush up training afterwards. NVC as far as I've seen it appeals to those with a less corporate affiliation, works with books external to the course (a lot of them) which might feel to an outsider like some quasi-scientific appeal and with themes that seem childish. I had no problem with the giraffe once I understood it, but no corporate trainer has ever tried to have me wear giraffes ears in front of my co-workers. It feels like good content, scientology method.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#203
post #192
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you actually read the book, you find it has a very awkward way of speaking which can induce eyerolls.

It drove me up the wall and I didn't finish it. All this "if you answered c, e and f, we are not of the same opinion" feels passive-aggressive to me. The whole thing feels manipulative to me. It makes me think that people try an insincere way of talking to me, in order to manipulate my feelings and reaction. I've had huge discussions with friends who try to live the book, and neither of us could make the other see th…

> And you telling your boyfriend that him leaving makes you feel very alone is just another way of saying 'please don't go'".

It's a more informative way of saying it. You include information about what the reasoning behind your request is, and how important it is to you. Then he can consider whether going out is more important to him than your request is to you, or if there is a way to compromise on your conflicting desires. (Consider the difference between 'you leaving means I will be stuck at home without any food or transport' and 'you leaving will make me feel lonely').

But, for some people who aren't used to the idea of negotiating behavior and emotions explicitly like this, then explicit references to emotion seem like some kind of guilt trip or 'trump card' - it's some kind of understanding that emotions are meant to be kept private unless they are overwhelming, so mentioning them is implicitly saying that this is a Very Big Deal.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#204
post #199
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It drove me up the wall and I didn't finish it. All this "if you answered c, e and f, we are not of the same opinion" feels passive-aggressive to me. The whole thing feels manipulative to me. It makes me think that people try an insincere way of talking to me, in order to manipulate my feelings and reaction. I've had huge discussions with friends who try to live the book, and neither of us could make the other see th…

The linked page has four steps, the last of which is "make requests".

That's what makes it passive-aggressive, it can be perceived as three steps of manipulation to get to a fourth step. If your ultimate intent is to make a request, then make a request.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your workplace sounds toxic and full of backstabbing jerks. Am I misunderstand you? I can't imagine why you seem proud to work in such a place.

>>>Your workplace sounds toxic Well, it's the Marine Corps. It ain't a rose garden.[1][2] >>>full of backstabbing jerks Actually quite the contrary. If anything we are well-known for our solidarity.[3] Assuming there aren't issues due to rank/the command hierarchy, most personal disagreements are handled face-to-face. People try to stiff-arm work responsibilities off to other offices but I think that is endemic to an…

I'm not sure why you'd expect something called "Non-violent communication" to be an appropriate methodology to use in actual fighting.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#206
post #204
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked page has four steps, the last of which is "make requests".

That's what makes it passive-aggressive, it can be perceived as three steps of manipulation to get to a fourth step. If your ultimate intent is to make a request, then make a request.

Ending at third step and leaving request unstated sounds highly manipulative to me, because the other party now has to figure out what you really want. Going straight to the request makes the tone do all the work - whether the exact request is even registered by the other party, or whether they feel forced to abandon their plans, all depends on how you voice your words.

Perhaps people are different, but I'm of the type that I absolutely want to hear both what you want and reasoning why you want it, and I tend to pick up and overanalyze the tone if you leave either part unstated.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#207
post #12
post #7

I learned this at a company retreat at some point. We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. It takes a little care and thought to apply it well. I've found when done effectively, it can unlock difficult conversations and turn even the most hostile interactions into productive conversations. You are demon…

> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. Reactions like that tell me once again that a lot of people really underestimate simple stuff like this. I hope that in the future simple and useful psychology topics will find their way into our schools so that the acceptance and understanding for the usefulnes…

This happens mostly because orgs are stuck in confrontational, or at least non-cooperative ways of working, and expect that communication tools will somehow make it acceptable.

When the tool is used, people soon realize that they won't get what they need, and that they now have to endure a speciific ceremonial.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#208
> Felix, you always leave your dirty socks on the floor! It’s disgusting! Clean this up before you do anything else.

Obviously Felix is going to respond bad to the first example because it's a demand. Someone forcing you to do something is never welcomed.

> 1. Observe Facts] Felix, when I see two balls of soiled socks under the coffee table, [2. Note Feelings] I feel irritated because [3. Uncover Desires] I want more order in the rooms that we share in common - [4. Make Requests] would you be willing to put your socks in the washing machine?

Assuming this is told with a calm voice, it won't transmit the same urgency as the first one. You are expressing that you are irritated with your words but your voice is not saying the same so Felix could assume is not as terrible as your words tell. In my opinion, the real difference is just in the request; you are requesting something not demanding it and it makes it less aggressive.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the violence I've experienced in communication has been high social skill people passive aggressively using "appropriate channels" and "emotional intelligence" to harm me. What would be useful is a kind of "defense against the dark arts" program aimed at teaching people who prefer and practice direct communication to defend against these harms without feeling like they have to start using manipulative tricks th…

This is what I've been building for the last four years—mostly offline, but putting more stuff online: emotionalselfdefense.com ...unless you were referring to NVC itself, as I think it could also be used for this, although much of the work that I do is trying to build on the shoulders of NVC.

Sounds interesting, just subscribed.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#210
post #86

Nonviolent communication comes up on HN every few months and it's always the same praises and criticisms. I've been on the receiving end of NVC quite a few times in my career, and every single time it comes off as patronizing bullshit. I'd rather people yell at me than couch everything in, "I feel X" or "Would you be willing to Y". When important things must be done well, do you think this sort of language is used? O…

It comes across to me as inhuman, corporate-drone speak. It also comes across as trying to manage the other person, treating them as a child or less than human themselves.

The whole idea just screams "fake" to me.

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