Live data from Hacker News

My Talk at Microsoft

stallman.org

201–210 of 248 posts

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to push back on this, at least a bit. Maybe I'm atypical because I work with Javascript a lot, but I don't think it's that hard to read minified JS. Modern browsers have a lot of tools to help with that -- you can set breakpoints on DOM manipulations, you can autoformat the code so it's not just a jumble of text -- you can even pause execution and add custom code to functions that can do additional logging…

Documentation, comments, code layout and file structure are all critical components to any software project. Minimization removes all of that (right?) and I wouldn't consider it to be in "source form" in the spirit the phrase intends.

I wouldn't say that I prefer reading minified code over well-formatted code. Certainly minified code isn't ideal or equivalent to getting access to original source form. What I'm specifically pushing back against is the idea that if code is minified, it might as well be running on a server -- that "you can't realistically inspect or edit 99% of what you're running".

I suspect that's hyperbole; browser inspection tools are really good, and I regularly inspect and edit minified code. Even outside of the browser, I've patched and fixed bugs in minified 3rd-party dependencies where I didn't have access to the source code. It takes a little while to untangle the code, but it's not hard -- just time consuming.

I don't want to dismiss people who struggle with that, but I also don't think I'm that special or amazing of a coder. If I can do something, odds are pretty good that other experienced programmers can too.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a new type of yoga where you jump up and down while repeating your mantra. (His is "Developers".)

Most everyone makes fun of that mantra moment, but Ballmer was right, Microsoft has always historically done its best work when it put Developers first. Ballmer wasn't always great at executing a developer-first vision (particularly compared to the modern open source era of Azure/WSL/VS Code/…) [ETA: partly because Ballmer was not himself a developer and needed the reminders], but it's weird to criticize him for shou…

The criticism isn't that he was shouting about how developers were the core to business. The criticism is just that he looked silly doing it.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#203
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML and CSS are content, not software (they're not executables) - they're like DOC or PDF.

> HTML and CSS are content, not software (they're not executables) - they're like DOC or PDF. Well… https://keithclark.co.uk/labs/css-fps/ You could also argue that DOCs and PDFs are software.

No, DOCs and PDFs aren't necessarily software, they can contain software, just like a webpage. And just like a webpage, Stallman can choose to use FOSS to view those files, and that software can choose to not run any scripts in those files.

I'm sure he'd agree that people should also not include proprietary software in those files as well, but doing so is far less common than webpages, at least for stuff the average user is going to run into.

And how many people are actually programming in HTML/CSS vs JavaScript? A proof of concept is one thing, but most users won't run into it.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#204

> I am no easy mark for those who want me to change my views. This is an absolute lie. I know for a fact he has cancelled talks he's agreed to after being contacted by various factions of activists.

Canceling a talk doesn't equate to changing a view.

He had a view that going and giving a talk would be a good idea, and activists convinced him to change this view

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Minsky went to Jeffrey Epstein's pedo island. * Everyone agrees he was offered a 17 year old girl * Someone else, who was also on pedo island for some reason, says he didn't take the offer, even though they were on pedo island * RMS described the trafficked child as "willing" * RMS has also made public arguments for legalizing pedophilia * People somehow still take RMS seriously I see one wrong thing and one omis…

> RMS did not describe the trafficked child as "willing". He said she presented herself to Minsky as willing... That unbelievably loose semantics, especially considering this wasn't some random streetwalker at a bar. They were on an billionaire's island with a f'ing sex temple, for god's sake. And, I'll reiterate, this was a child being offered to a 74 year old man. What I will concede is that RMS is the first person…

You know what upsets me the most? That you're still not reading.

> RMS is the first person I wouldn't expect to understand any of the unspoken obviousnesses of the situation, such as being able to deduce, in the moment, why a child prostitute would be presenting herself as willing

RMS did precisely that - showed the understanding by assuming the child was coerced. You seem to be actually arguing here that she was willing.

> Regardless, that doesn't cover how he used it at the time to excuse Minsky allegedly sleeping with her, because this supposed witness wasn't openly known.

He didn't excuse him. On the contrary, he assumed the accusations were true. Let me quote his own words:

> The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem. (See https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...) Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it).

He did not defend Minsky from accusation of having sex with a minor. He only wanted to make sure the accusation doesn't get inflated in public perception from "had sex" to "applied violence to have sex". That's literally all he wanted. Whether or not that was needlessly pedantic or inappropriate at the moment, it is strictly not true that he defended Minsky against accusation of sex.

Let me reiterate, even though RMS was as clear as humanly possible here - he was not defending the act of sleeping with that woman, he was only trying to stop the alleged sex being inflated into accusations of physical violence.

> people jump to the defense of a 66 year man that does this, as if he shouldn't have learned by now how not to act like this, even with impairments

You're assuming a lot. How about, people jumping to the defense of a person who has been subject of an Internet which hunt based on purposeful misinterpretation, later turned into explicit lies in the media headlines? Some people do not like RMS, but hate lies more.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#206
post #85
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But MS were, at the time, against all things open source. Not just free software (although that did seem to get the full brunt of their ire).

> But MS were, at the time, against all things open source. This may or may not be the case, insofar as an organisation can be said to have a position on a vague notion. As per the article, rms is seeking that: "Publicly take back Microsoft's attacks on copyleft made in the 2000s. Ballmer called the GPL a "cancer"." I suspect rms doesn't care terribly much if MS were 'against all things open source' since no one real…

Just as Free Software is, effectively, whatever the Free Software Foundations says it is, open source software is whatever the Open Source Initiative says it is.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RMS did not describe the trafficked child as "willing". He said she presented herself to Minsky as willing... That unbelievably loose semantics, especially considering this wasn't some random streetwalker at a bar. They were on an billionaire's island with a f'ing sex temple, for god's sake. And, I'll reiterate, this was a child being offered to a 74 year old man. What I will concede is that RMS is the first person…

You know what upsets me the most? That you're still not reading. > RMS is the first person I wouldn't expect to understand any of the unspoken obviousnesses of the situation, such as being able to deduce, in the moment, why a child prostitute would be presenting herself as willing RMS did precisely that - showed the understanding by assuming the child was coerced. You seem to be actually arguing here that she was wil…

> That you're still not reading.

Projection. Read that paragraph you quoted, specifically the words "in the moment". Nobody is arguing that Stallman didn't deduce she might have been coerced. His whole excuse is that Minsky wouldn't have been able to tell that in the moment, even though he was on f'ing sex trafficking island.

That a 17 year old offering to sleep with a 74 year old man on a billionaire's sex island was a victim of trafficking is not something that takes any bit of thoughtful reflection to figure out! It can be done in the moment by anyone with a conscience.

> He didn't excuse him.

Yes he did. "The 74 year old man might have thought the 17 year old on sex trafficking island was willing" is an excuse of the most disgusting type. Now you're making excuses for the excuser.

> Some people do not like RMS, but hate lies more.

You have proven no lies in my bulleted list.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a new type of yoga where you jump up and down while repeating your mantra. (His is "Developers".)

Most everyone makes fun of that mantra moment, but Ballmer was right, Microsoft has always historically done its best work when it put Developers first. Ballmer wasn't always great at executing a developer-first vision (particularly compared to the modern open source era of Azure/WSL/VS Code/…) [ETA: partly because Ballmer was not himself a developer and needed the reminders], but it's weird to criticize him for shou…

I agree with you. He was 100% correct. And that's why the company is top in valuation.

And I love to develop on Microsoft. Best toolset around. I use C#/F#/C++ on Windows 10

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#209
post #21

> Implement an anonymous internet sales platform that doesn't require Javascript, using GNU Taler (taler.net). That seems like a potentially super important project yet it does not have a wikipedia page. That's abnormal! It was even discussed here in 2017! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15274110

How would a privacy-preserving payment system (like GNU Taler) obviate the need for Javascript?

RMS and the FSF oppose any proprietary software, and refuse to use it. From a practical point of view, this means having to block javascript by default and at best whitelist it just on sites that are known to use only Free Software on their website. Furthermore, since that browsers and web standards don't provide an automated way to check javascript license before execution, and a site can change what javascript they use at any time (on every page load even), some Free Software advocates find it safer and easier to abstain from any javascript at all.

Payment processing software like Taler is most useful when integrated/embedded in as many websites as possible, including sites that use proprietary javascript. Even if the Taler implementation used only javascript with a Free license, using it on that site would require enabling both Free and non-Free javascript. Thus it would be preferable to Free Software advocates if Taler implementations were written to work without requiring javascript.

Re: My Talk at Microsoft

#210

> I am no easy mark for those who want me to change my views. This is an absolute lie. I know for a fact he has cancelled talks he's agreed to after being contacted by various factions of activists.

Canceling a talk doesn't equate to changing a view.

It means he's an easy mark, and doesn't think things through. I lost any respect I had for him after that, and so did everyone else in the circles I associate with.
Post reply on HN