Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#201

Post by jonnycomputer » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:30 AM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #104

jonnycomputer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since time immemorial" irrelevant. not all contracts are sanctioned or defined by the state. the problem is that christians see the state as sanctioning their religious institution, and now, perverting it. the solution is to have the state get out of the business of sanctioning it.

>the solution is to have the state get out of the business of sanctioning it. Legality is tied to morality and morality is tied to religion (in those who believe in religion). You cannot separate them out in a society with high regard for religion. Even if you remove religion you still have the cultural views on morality which become tied to the state's laws.

Yes, true. Still...

The weird thing for me is why people feel this need for the state to legitimate the institution. If your church, and your family, recognize your union as a marriage, that's great. You've made a public pledge to the people that matter in your life.

And if your church and your family doesn't recognize my union as legitimate marriage, perhaps because my previous divorce wasn't legitimated by an authority you recognize, or because its a gay marriage, or an inter-racial one, why should I care? My marriage isn't for you, just as yours isn't for me.

But when its the state, well... then get pretty tricky very fast.

Christians say marriage is a religious institution, holy from time immemorial. My own view is that marriage has been many things in different times and places, but were I to grant Christians the point, the implication should clearly be: the separation between church and state clearly demands that the state stop sticking it nose into religion.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#202

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:30 AM UTC

javagram wrote: post #145

cannonedhamster wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he was charged it was determined that despite this possible defense there was enough evidence to convict him off knowingly committing sexual assault. It's possible he'll be found not guilty in the court of law, but it's unlikely a convicted sex offender with a harem of women is above coercion and the law likely find the defendant would more likely have known than not known.

You appear to be confusing Minsky, who was dead before any of this hit the news and was never charged with any crime, and Epstein.

You're correct. I read deposition and made the incorrect connection.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#203

Post by momokoko » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:31 AM UTC

Heads up to anyone who might decide to comment in this thread. Its a great way to end your career if something gets read differently than you intended.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#204

Post by jacobwilliamroy » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:31 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #56

Worth noting that (as far as I know) Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman (and probably others) thought he should have an office. He's listed as a "visiting scientist" on CSAIL's page: https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman He's around on the mailing list (mostly to reply to every mention of software with a questi…

>Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman thought he should have an office.

I will tell my descendants true stories about Richard Stallman, and none of them will believe me.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#205

Post by geofft » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:32 AM UTC

partialrecall wrote: post #131

geofft wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matthew Garrett, who served on the FSF board of directors, wrote about the "not being neurotypical" hypothesis two days ago: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.html In particular, he says he did try to do the compassion and gentle correction work, and Stallman had no interest in it. Stallman's job has a job description - leading the Free Software Foundation. If he's not leading it effectively, it is important for his…

I think it should go without saying that atypicality is not a binary matter.

Sure. I know people "on the spectrum," I know people with various forms of PTSD, I know people with bipolar, I know people with ADHD, I know plural folks, etc., and none of them act like RMS. I know very friendly, conscientious, and kind neuroatypical folks. I know brusque and tactless neuroatypical folks with whom it's draining to interact in certain ways. They still don't act like RMS.

So the (implicit) argument "This is just what you expect with neuroatypical people" / "If we want to be welcoming of neuroatypical people, we have to be welcoming of people who act like RMS" is even less true because of how diverse the category is. We know RMS isn't being excluded because of his (hypothetical) neuroatypicality because there are so many neuroatypical people who aren't and wouldn't be excluded.

If you want to argue that the problem with RMS is he is in the narrow category of people who act like RMS (and I would say that not even Linus Torvalds is in this category), that's a fine argument to make, but it's a bit circular to defend his inclusion on such grounds. Is this category the sort of category, like race or class or neurological makeup, that is beyond (or mostly beyond) one's control and has little correlation with whether you can do good work? Or is this a category like "asshole"?

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#206

Post by tzs » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:33 AM UTC

selfawareposter wrote: post #135

tzs wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn’t follow the story. Was Stallman taken out of context? Yes. This statement of Stallman's: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. has been reported in several places as Stallman saying Epstein's gi…

Except for the part where he got taken to a remote island by a billionaire and was presented with a very young woman who immediately wanted to have sex with him.

You mean the island that Epstein regularly invited numerous people to in order to discuss assorted legitimate things, like supporting their charities or their research?

Epstein's island wasn't some stereotypical villain lair where anyone who steps foot on it must be up to no good. It was a place that he conducted the normal business that any entirely legitimate billionaire would conduct, in addition to the villain stuff.

Based on the girl's deposition, it looks like she was there on the record to provide massages to guests, and off the record was forced to make those erotic massages including sex. It is not clear which, if any, recipients of those massages plus sex knew that the sex was something she was forced into. There are no details given on her sex with Minsky other than it happened.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#207

Post by iamleppert » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:33 AM UTC

They need to do more about Stallman. They really need to consider a criminal investigation into his conduct to see if any laws have been violated. I really hope the DA gets involved so he can be held accountable. They should impound his electronics and search them for child porn.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#208

Post by javagram » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:33 AM UTC

partialrecall wrote: post #199

javagram wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online media outlets are well known to lie and often do in cases such as these. They are the yellow press of our day. Unlike 20th century newspapers, they don’t have ombudsmen or public editors who care more about truth than headlines (A traditional newspaper might make mistakes such as these, but they’d at least be embarrassed enough to issue a correction the day later). And since they publish in the USA, about US p…

You're viewing the history of journalism through rose-tinted glasses. In the late 19th century, American newspapers conspired to start a war for no good reason. That dwarfs anything they've done recently (although the NYTime's role in starting the so called "war on terror" might come close.)

That’s why I said the 20th century, the “yellow press” I mentioned was the 19th century papers you’re talking about.

They did anything to sell a headline - in the 20th century, ethical standards for media were better for a while, although of course they have always been susceptible to influence by the government as you mention (whether Iraq, Vietnam, or more justifiable wars).

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#209

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:34 AM UTC

partialrecall wrote: post #138

cannonedhamster wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always hard when people who built things you love have flaws. I remember my own reaction to hearing just how bad his behavior was. It's beyond the bounds of acceptable for anyone. Using his position to proposition women, handing it business cards to women he was interested in even in professional settings, defending pedophilia on his website as two consenting people when children can't functionally consent. Do I…

> "He was completely delightful when I met him in person" Really? That's far from my experience with meeting him. I found him to be physically and socially repulsive, but intellectually fascinating.

I was genuinely surprised myself. I've heard many of the same stories, but he was completely patient with me as I gushed my appreciation to him as he got off of a train and treated me with the utmost respect. I am not able to pick up on social cues easily myself but have worked very hard to become good at it. This is why I know it's possible to learn this skill of one puts in the effort.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#210

Post by partialrecall » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

cannonedhamster wrote: post #195

marcinzm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the solution is to have the state get out of the business of sanctioning it. Legality is tied to morality and morality is tied to religion (in those who believe in religion). You cannot separate them out in a society with high regard for religion. Even if you remove religion you still have the cultural views on morality which become tied to the state's laws.

Legality has nothing to do with morality. What morality is there in saying that you cannot pass a vehicle in a tight lane? None. It's a safety concern. Morals only concern religion. Ethics concern right or wrong. Law concerns a group of defined social agreements between people within a defined region. While the basis of some of our laws has a history of Christian influence, our laws in and of themselves do not requir…

> What morality is there in saying that you cannot pass a vehicle in a tight lane?"

Any system of morality in which it's morally wrong to endanger the lives of other motorists is a system of morality in which a justification for traffic laws can be constructed.

(Also, I find your juxtaposition of atheism and morality very alien. I say that as an atheist with strong opinions on what is or is not moral.)