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Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

jeanhsu.com

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Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#201

Post by quanticle »

lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

The problem with the super-strict parenting style described in the WSJ article is that it destroys passion. I'm not Chinese; I'm Indian. Nevertheless, I've seen a lot of this style of parenting applied to my peers.

The pernicious thing about this parenting style is that it appears to work very well for the first 18 years. Then, the child graduates from high-school, and goes to college. Some break down without the constraints imposed by hovering parents and constant scheduling. Some get pulled into the wrong crowds and end up doing questionable or illegal activities. But the most unlucky ones go through college just fine.

Why are these the most unlucky ones? Once they're done with the academic grind, they look around and have no goals. They never developed the ability to create their own goals - to be self directed. Not only is this a huge disadvantage in their personal lives, but it hurts job performance as well. No assignment at work is going to be as well defined as a school project. No manager will babysit these people as much their teachers and parents did. What ends up happening is that these people find themselves being surpassed by others who have less skill, as the others have much more self direction and the ability to push themselves without requiring external motivation.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#202

Post by mcantelon »

lionhearted wrote: post #101
mcantelon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sometimes the main reasons said out loud - "well, I just want to be happy" - seem to mask other darker reasons, like fear of failure or inertia or feeling ill-equipped to make a difference. Sometimes obsession with external validation masks the same things. There are no easy answers as to what is best for any given human, but there's definitely a market for those looking for the kind of easy answers that Amy Chua is…

You know cantelon, I'm going to think twice next time before I take up a position that the people who agree are quiet, and the people who disagree are loud. I put my perspective and reasoning up as impersonally as possible, and people are voting up someone who blames everyone else for their problems, saying he hates me and "fuck you"? It's... I dunno man, there's been some good discussion but I'm incredibly disappoin…

>Indeed... or like the everyone is a unique snowflake craze, eh?

Yeah, both attitudes are simplistic.

Hadn't seen the hostility directed towards you until now. Not constructive as you have no ill intent.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#203

Post by bane »

jeanhsu wrote: post #22
bane wrote: post #10

Extremely well written, and echoes many of the comments in the quora thread (and in my own observations). There's a logic to it all though, in China for example, there isn't really any reward to be a big risk taker, and the downsides can be huge (social isolation, imprisonment, worse). Success then is to follow directions, do what you are told, and do it with supreme competence. This is often discussed in terms of th…

thanks! agreed--what is necessary for success is completely different here, yet many Chinese parents still think there is a magic formula, and that they know it!

It seems to go both ways too. I find Americans can have a hard time being successful in other countries with vastly different socio-economic cultures as well. (ref: U.S. Investment Failure in newly capitalist Russia and China).

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#204

Post by [deleted] »

sown wrote: post #78
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…

[deleted]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#205

Post by bane »

sown wrote: post #78
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…

PS: The real shit-kicker is that eventually I did get it together on my own terms, with just OK grades by even my own standards and graduated from some out-of-state land grant university. Some of those other kids who got straight As or whatever, some whom went to Cal or Stanford, whom spent their youth jumping through hoops for their parents' affections, work at the same place I do, writing shitty enterprise code.

That's the ironic bit to this entire debate. I know I've worked with people who spent their formative years going through the over-achievement grind (and I certainly didn't by any stretch).

What's really interesting to me is how they self-reinforce their upbringing. "Oh it set me up for success" or "It made sure I wouldn't end up as a failure", but then I point out how many of their colleagues didn't go through that hassle to get to exactly the same point and they can't answer it. Many of them even say they would do the same thing to their kids. Sometimes hilariously -- I have one colleague who has already started saving for their kid's tuition for Harvard (his alma mater) and doesn't yet have any children.

They expect that the tuition will have inflated so much that they have to start saving now. Observing that he and I have ended up in virtually the same jobs does nothing to dissuade this.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#206

Post by lionhearted »

lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I got a few emails about this... I'm not sure if anyone is following this thread any more, but I reckon I should clarify my views for posterity. Here's a reply I wrote -

--

Your positions there were good... I need to reflect and pick my words a lot more carefully when I write on something that touches people so closely like parenting. I am actually an admirer of the Chinese way except not the abusive jerk part of it. But I studied Chinese culture some - they're incredible. They move somewhere, dirt poor, and within 2-3 generations they're established, prosperous, educated, own businesses and real estate, have established families... I remember one time I was staying in a small inn in Amsterdam owned by a Chinese family, recent immigrants to the Netherlands. They'd rent all the rooms, and if every room got rented, the couple and their young son would go sleep in the lobby at midnight instead of their own room.

In the end, the place would only sell out maybe 10 nights per month, for a total of perhaps 800 euros per month for the inconvenience... but then that's about $12,000 USD per year they're banking by sacrificing their own comfort. Later, they'd for sure invest that into education, expanding in business, things like that. It's why Chinese are so successful anywhere.

But I should've stressed that I think the abusive and mean aspects of it are crap. I do think it's crap. But more self-sacrifice, achievement, duty, service... I don't know, I think America is way too far in the other direction. It's funny cuz I'm guessing our ideal parenting styles aren't very far apart. Lots of encouragement but also emphasizing it's not just do whatever makes you happy - delay gratification, serve worth causes, strive for more, better yourself, give your kids a much better life than you had, etc, etc.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#208

Post by xiaoma »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #183
xiaoma wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the context of the US (which was the topic of the article): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Race_6_figure_household_an...

Looking at the breakdown, then perhaps Indian mothers are the superior ones? :-) The point is that optimizing along one or two metrics such as income or education is myopic (which was the actual topic of the article), especially when you don't take into consideration the associated costs (opportunity and otherwise).

Look, you asked for a citation and I spent, apparently wasted, my time getting you two. Looking at income, education, percentage of children born out of wedlock, incarceration rates, and a number of other metrics, those of asian are doing very well compared to whites, blacks, and latinos.

If you want to pick your pet metric and explain why asians actually aren't doing so well, then you should provide citations and make your case.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#209

Post by Jem »

tastybites wrote: post #190
Jem wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would like to bring up a possibility, which is possibly controversial: a lot of these kids let themselves be trampled on by their parents. In addition to (probably) being bullied at school, they are bullied at home by their parents. I really wish they would do more to stand up for themselves." I can imagine that only someone who has never been through years of systematic abuse / bullying would lay the blame on the…

> I can imagine that only someone who has never been through years of systematic abuse / bullying would lay the blame on the victim. I'm Chinese and I know plenty of folks who went through this abuse. I know many kids who did stand up to the abuse - and as a kid who stood up to my parents (and whose parents changed because of it), I despise this horrible stereotype and wish more kids would muster the constitution to…

I'm not Chinese, but I was abused for 7 years by a member of my own family. It wasn't until 8 years after it stopped that I finally plucked up the courage to tell someone about it. That someone can sit there and say that it happened because I didn't stand up for myself, and then go on to defend that view when pulled up on it, deeply bothers me.

Just because you're Chinese, or "know someone who was abused", doesn't mean you know what it's like to be that kind of victim. It's fuck all to do with not having "the constitution to fight it" and everything to do with being destroyed from the inside out.

Good for you for having the guts to fight it though, eh?

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#210

Post by jtheory »

megablast wrote: post #117
Confusion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The story about Agassi is nice, but a red herring. Most people do not succeed in such a spectacular way. They remain mediocre and still 'hate tennis and their father'. A prime example are Chinese olympic teams. If you've seen the documentary about the rowing team, hand-picked, drilled in military style and note they still losing to Western teams, you can be nothing but sad for them…

You can't say that these children who do not make it to the top, do not make it anywhere? Obviously a lot more study needs to go into this before anyone can make such blatant remarks either way.

The hardest part for the children who do not make it to the top is that they feel like they have not made it anywhere.

There's more than one person close to me who feels this way -- if you've been raised to believe that #2 is the first loser, you may have a very hard time adapting to a real world in which success is often collaborative and has no end point.

I mean, think about bringing a fiercely competitive mindset to one of the many areas of life where in reality, if your peers/collaborators/friends/relatives (not competitors) do better work, that helps you towards your common goal.

I've been thinking & talking about this a lot lately, because I'm the father of an 17-month-old, and I want her to know how to work hard for long-term goals, without giving her crippling perfectionism (no, not everything worth doing is worth doing well...) and a permanently twisted view of life.

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