Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#201

Post by aszantu » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #176

It is soooo painful watching non-biologists debate pesticide impact based on watching biased, nonscientific reports. In the same way it's easy to train an ML model that is garbage, but you have to an expert in ML to understand why, it's easy to make mistaken conclusions with complex systems like biology/agriculture. I see comments below like "pesticides are bitter and that's why vegetables grown with pesticides are b…

wheat and corn aren't bitter, still they have natural pesticides called lectins.

Strawberries are sweet still they have tannins which are toxic to humans.

Some green plants taste sweetish or salty, yet they contain oxalates which can damage internal tissues and organs, joints and bones.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#202

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #189

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing absolute numbers to nothing isn't very meaningful. You compare your $340 billion to the almost a hundred trillion dollars in US total net worth and the amount that went somewhere else is above 99%. To get to the numbers like "1% of people own 40% of the wealth" you have to go the 1%, which is to say about three million people, and then you're including a bunch of doctors and software engineers who are clear…

If you compare 340 billion to the net worth of the median person the mind boggles.

Then you're comparing the sum total of the wealth of many of the richest families to that of one individual person.

The fact that rich people have a lot of money is not really a recent development. But it's the focus on the super rich which is missing the thread.

If housing prices go up, people at the 25th percentile lose and people at the 75th percentile gain. We see the loss for the people at the 25th percentile and recognize it as a problem, but then people are pretending like we can just take the money "back" from the Walton family even though that's not where most of it actually went.

It went to home price appreciation for a bunch of middle aged and retired sociologists and car dealership managers and dental hygienists. If you want them to give it back so the poor aren't so poor then you have to recognize that and thereby identify who it is you really have to fight over that money.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#203

Post by throwaway94857 » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

blodovnik wrote: post #25

There’s no surprise here is there? We, as a society, poison pretty much everything as a standard part of the agricultural process. The outcome -the goal - of that is of course, death of vast numbers of insects. Mission accomplished. It’s a success story, strangely. The only thing that seems weird to me is how society was so easily convinced that soaking all our food in poison is OK and not a problem all good thumbs u…

>"that's really weird"

Not really, given that our use of pesticides allows us to feed billions of people worldwide at low cost. Rates of hunger in the developed world are almost non-existent and globally hunger rates are as low as they've ever been and continue to plummet.

Pesticide treated food is safe and healthy too, so we're feeding the world with safe and healthy food. This is a great thing.

It's not surprising at all that people would say all good. There would need to be some catastrophic side effects of pesticide use for people to even think about questioning it.

So far all problems related to pesticides have been far, far outweighed by them giving us the ability to feed billions.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#204

Post by scottlocklin » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

Well, we're running a giant experiment on this: the EU recently banned them. In fact they've banned several of them and the worst uses of them since 2013.

My bet: bees might do better, but the over all insectopocalypse is due to something else.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#205

Post by shims » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #149

jimhi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

Organic only means that the grower can't use synthetic pesticides, so Organic Foods are not pesticide free. The Government has allowed various Organic Pesticides that growers can use. I still choose Organic for most of my food whether that makes a difference or not. Getting back to the Original story, the Pesticides used in Organic Farming still kill insects. Here is a link with more information. http://npic.orst.edu…

Many organic pesticides are synthetic. The organic label in the US doesn't mean much.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#206

Post by lisper » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

blodovnik wrote: post #25

There’s no surprise here is there? We, as a society, poison pretty much everything as a standard part of the agricultural process. The outcome -the goal - of that is of course, death of vast numbers of insects. Mission accomplished. It’s a success story, strangely. The only thing that seems weird to me is how society was so easily convinced that soaking all our food in poison is OK and not a problem all good thumbs u…

> The only thing that seems weird to me is how society was so easily convinced that soaking all our food in poison is OK and not a problem all good thumbs up. That’s really weird.

Not really. The alternative was having all our food eaten by insects and not having enough left over for ourselves. It's kind of a no-brainer in the short run.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#207

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

mhkool wrote: post #111

sokoloff wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have relations with my wife and we have children together. That makes it a true fact that I'm a motherf#@%er, yet using that label does not lead to productive discourse.

I think the correct and productive term to use is "parent", not motherf*@!#

I think the correct and productive term for someone who uses chemicals in furtherance of feeding the world is “farmer”.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#208

Post by pfdietz » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #140

pfdietz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this "Roundup is a dangerous poison" was a propaganda meme that came out of the need to demonize US agribusiness in Europe. It's a kind of social activism protectionism. I would not be at all surprised to learn it was sustained by funding from ag interests in Europe. OF course Roundup is not a dangerous poison. This is simply a lie that is repeated over and over by the dishonest and the gullible.

Tell this to my husband's brother, who has probably-terminal cancer of a type that's got a strong statistical link to the chemicals he worked with as a lawncare professional.

"Chemicals", not Roundup.

Guilt by association?

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#209

Post by turk73 » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

blodovnik wrote: post #25

There’s no surprise here is there? We, as a society, poison pretty much everything as a standard part of the agricultural process. The outcome -the goal - of that is of course, death of vast numbers of insects. Mission accomplished. It’s a success story, strangely. The only thing that seems weird to me is how society was so easily convinced that soaking all our food in poison is OK and not a problem all good thumbs u…

It's not weird in the sense that technology has no human values. Just like the invention of nerve gas or the atom bomb, technology can serve a positive or a negative purpose and it won't care a bit if the human race goes extinct. Just because "we" created something doesn't mean "we" have the last word. This is why I keep hammering on mass surveillance--this stuff is not our friend. "Get rid of insects" was the goal, now we're rid of them and whole ecosystems are crashing.

I keep seeing Monarch butterflies around here and I wonder what they are eating since there is no milkweed in any direction.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#210

Post by mikeash » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #87

rollthehard6 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds of all those times we are told that 'customers demanded X', as if we all stood outside supermarkets with placards saying, "We demand huge strawberries that don't taste of anything". The market does what helps the market, it often isn't good for people or the planet they inhabit - that's the story of our current era and customers need to demand change on that basis.

Yeah but when faced with the choice between the tomatoes that were $8.50/kg and really nice but would go off in 2 days, vs. the tomatoes that were $4.50/kg and still nice and red and lasted a whole week but were pretty tasteless, you bought the latter, didn't you? Customers demand things by paying money for them.

When did I have that choice?