Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

thenation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 270 posts

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#201

Post by kmlx »

mschuster91 wrote: post #57
luckylion wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tou…

I'm half German, half Croat. Granted, I was just a kid, but I can remember hour long waiting times at the borders. Even today, with only the border Croatia-Slovenia remaining (and, back to Germany, our beloved Interior Minister's Grenzpolizei checking tourists for not carrying refugees), the waiting times can be hours. The earlier we can get rid of this crap, the better. What is also a benefit of ever more unificatio…

“phone calls and SMSes were ludicruously expensive, and mobile internet roaming all but unaffordable. Now? No roaming charges any more.”

except Switzerland.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#202

Post by pixl97 »

mikeash wrote: post #67
cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

Me. I hate how the planet is arbitrarily sliced up. I hate the bureaucratic nonsense involved in going to various parts of it. I hate how my wife is forced to choose between citizenship in her country of birth and citizenship in her country of residence. I hate how our children have to get government approval just to visit their grandparents. And I hate how my welcome home to my own country after a brutally long plan…

Cool, but we're not going to do much about changing that anytime in the near future. The vast inequality between different places along with massively overpopulated locations in others sees sure to that.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#203

Post by sib »

maxehnert wrote: post #148
dheera wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Svalbard is an amazing, humbling place in terms of nature. The fact that once you leave town, for hundreds of kilometers in any direction there are zero humans, zero cellular reception, just nothing but you, the ice, and maybe the bears. I went there one winter and spent a week without sunlight. It was the first time in my life I went a few days without seeing the sun. A few photos: https://www.facebook.com/dheera/me…

I was looking over pictures of this place last night actually. There's a national park there too which looks other worldly. Then of course I looked at flights and it's about 40hrs of travel and $1300 so probably not making that trip in this lifetime.

If you can make it, you should...

I was lucky enough to go there for a trip a couple of years ago and it was incredible, in all the ways that others have described.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#204

Post by chrchang523 »

diminoten wrote: post #175
SamReidHughes wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why would we try to apply the same policy? To make the country as nice a place to live as possible. Here is a concrete example. Look at the outmigration of California -- if there had been way less immigration, more people (that aren't descended from recent immigrants) would get to enjoy living in California, but instead it's too expensive and polluted, houses are really packed in together. Imagine how much nicer…

California is not too expensive and polluted due to immigration, it's too expensive and polluted due to Americans. It's also neither polluted nor expensive, when you consider the entire state. Some of the most barren places in the US are in California, as are some very poor areas. It's a big state, which is my whole point, the US is huge . But I get it, you want nice things and you don't want others to have them. Too…

The US has a far better track record than any other leading power in history when it comes to facilitating the development of other countries into nice places. See e.g. http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2009/11/how-americans-spent-th... , or consider the motivation behind the Optional Practical Training student visa provision. As a US citizen, I personally spent three years working in China for a Chinese company, on salaries in line with those of local PhD staff, and nobody lifted a finger to stop me from developing cutting-edge technology for them; this may be slightly more restricted today in the specific case of China, but a younger analogue of me interested in applying what they learned from US grad school to problems in India/Indonesia/etc. faces few barriers from the US side, beyond unusual income tax and other financial considerations that only really kick in if you're already making enough to live like a king.

Yes, I want nice things. And I want as many other people as possible to have them as well, which is why I'll remain opposed to US-weakening policies until we have a #2 power that's even better at helping foreigners than the US.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#205

Post by nullwasamistake »

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

There's a huge amount of cross border inter-state migration in the US. Maybe 30% of the population over a lifetime. I would guess less than half of citizens die in the state their parents were born.

I echo your amazement with the sheer size of the open border area. It's possibly the largest in the world.

US states are very culturally homogenous. Likely the highest similarity in the world among large countries. Possibly a result of such a mixed heritage and extremely pervasive cultural influences. Who really knows though.

I've been to many states and the difference between even coasts is the same as maybe 300 miles of travel in Europe or Asia.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#206

Post by adventured »

rootusrootus wrote: post #156
sixstringtheory wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having driven all over both MD and WV, both in cities and country. they are _very_ different. I also think that Belgium and Australia are very different in many ways, but they're also on opposite sides of the earth, whereas, as was pointed out, MD and WV share a border. I've also been all over NY and VA and would say they are more similar compared to the WV vs MD comparison. I'm not sure where you saw that NY is the…

I recently visited WV and I found it an interesting contradiction. A lot of the major infrastructure I saw was in perfectly fine condition, even quite good in many places. But in a lot of the little towns the poverty was palpable. Houses in such an amazing state of disrepair with patches cobbled on top of patches. Then you drive into the hills around the town and sooooo beautiful, big houses on big plots of land, etc…

> I wonder how long until someone builds a high speed commuter line into the heart of WV from DC. There is probably an obvious reason not to, but from my west coast perspective it seems like a good idea.

I grew up in MD and spent a lot of time in WV. It's a beautiful state with a lot of wonderful people. It has a modest crime rate and a murder rate typically 1/3 lower than the US rate. And of course as noted it's quite poor relatively speaking. Sub par economic outcomes is one of the long-term constants of WV. You will often notice the difference in the quality of the roads immediately when you cross into WV from MD or VA.

Here's one big reason why that high-speed line will never happen from DC to eg Morgantown or Charleston WV: the population of West Virginia hasn't increased since the 1930s. 1.8m people in 1935, 1.8m today (and falling). The demand just is never going to be there, given the extreme cost to build infrastructure in the US.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#207

Post by brokenkebab »

jacquesm wrote: post #171
brokenkebab wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mixing up travel without a hassle which everybody likes to exist, with open borders which is a way more complex idea. EU is not an open-border place, I, for example, has to obtain visa to enter it.

It is you who are mixing up inner and outer. The EU is an open border place (or at least, the Schengen area is) for those who reside there. For some other countries' nationals to enter a visum is required. The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries, in fact there are a lot of requirements on the boundary states and they get compensation for that.

The EU was never about 'open borders' at the boundaries

That's exactly what I wrote. Open borders as an idea is about global free movement. Schengen on the other hand is just a bigger kind of fenced area, international agreement simplifying travel and trade for citizens of participating countries. When @cojxd asked "For whom is open borders a dream?" I'm pretty sure it was meant as an idea/ideology. Because, if someone agrees to lift this border, but not that - there's simply nothing to discuss. It's a kind of position acceptable for almost everyone.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#208

Post by jobigoud »

evanb wrote: post #181
monksy wrote: post #176

According to the state department: " Svalbard: The Svalbard archipelago consists of nine main islands located midway between mainland Norway and the North Pole. You need a passport to enter Svalbard. Unlike Norway’s mainland, Svalbard is not party to the Schengen Agreement and air travelers to Svalbard from Norway will depart the Schengen Zone prior to boarding. Travelers to Svalbard face unique hazards given the ext…

This assumes you get to Svalbard the traditional way--by flight from the Norwegian mainland, in which case you need a passport to transit or depart the Schengen on the mainland side. If you arrive by some other means you do not.

Why do we need a passport to exit Schengen? Just for book keeping for when we come back ? Why isn't the passport needed when leaving by boat then?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#209

Post by coldtea »

olalonde wrote: post #200
coldtea wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And LA's poor millions are free to crowd right into to Beverly Hills and just start grabbing up some of that wealth. Yeah, not really free. They can't pay rent in Beverly Hills, they can't afford to shop at Beverly Hills shops, they can't even be walking around looking poor without harassment (especially if also black/latino), they don't have access to closed communities, and so on...

I feel like you're both supporting the parent's point: fears about open international borders are overblown because things like cost of living, culture or private property naturally limit massive migration.

Cost of living prevents a poor guy from some lesser LA area to rent in Beverly Hills.

While the same "but how I would afford the same lifestyle in US" might be a concern for middle class immigrants from poorer countries considering getting there, it's not really relevant to mass immigration from poverty stricken areas, as people from there can (and do) enter the US and live in dirt poor areas, working whatever minimum wage job they find (in fact they're welcomed from employers for being able to get paid so much less), and taking it up from there if/when they can...

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#210

Post by coldtea »

asdfman123 wrote: post #173
coldtea wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And LA's poor millions are free to crowd right into to Beverly Hills and just start grabbing up some of that wealth. Yeah, not really free. They can't pay rent in Beverly Hills, they can't afford to shop at Beverly Hills shops, they can't even be walking around looking poor without harassment (especially if also black/latino), they don't have access to closed communities, and so on...

Wow, it's almost like the people who live in fancy, rich neighborhoods enforce both laws and social norms to keep their neighborhoods fancy and rich.

Yeah, like redlining.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Post reply on HN