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Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

bbc.co.uk

201–210 of 218 posts

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#201
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The slow initial growth of trees makes me wonder whether we'd be better planting fast growing crops like bamboo and hemp which can be processed into long term materials like fibreboard and bioplastic or added to concrete.

and seaweed near areas with ocean access. I wonder if you could have wastewater treatment plants that feed seaweed (in a large enclosure with seawater access, done responsibly), then harvest the seaweed, dry it, and send the carbon straight to mines for sequestration. More simply, perhaps farmers could be encouraged to sink waste carbon in the same way. Corn farmers could be encouraged to send the husks to sequestrat…

Rather than immediately sequestering the carbon, it seems to me that it would make economic sense to use fibrous plant materials in products.

By taxing competing non ecologically friendly alternatives like fossil oil-based plastics, and sending carbon-containing products to landfill, a greater financial incentive is created for growers, and carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere rapidly and long-term.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#202
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and seaweed near areas with ocean access. I wonder if you could have wastewater treatment plants that feed seaweed (in a large enclosure with seawater access, done responsibly), then harvest the seaweed, dry it, and send the carbon straight to mines for sequestration. More simply, perhaps farmers could be encouraged to sink waste carbon in the same way. Corn farmers could be encouraged to send the husks to sequestrat…

Rather than immediately sequestering the carbon, it seems to me that it would make economic sense to use fibrous plant materials in products. By taxing competing non ecologically friendly alternatives like fossil oil-based plastics, and sending carbon-containing products to landfill, a greater financial incentive is created for growers, and carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere rapidly and long-term.

Is the carbon sequestered when the paper bags are sent to landfil, or do the bags rot releasing a mix of co2 and methane, making this a negative result because of the extra warming effects of methane?

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#203
post #181
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whether it is better to let tree grows on a parcel, or cut grass regularly and let it compost, adding biomass to it. Of those two options, trees. Compost does not sequester carbon in and of itself. That's a wishful thinking myth that is based on a lack of understanding of soil. Compost is organic matter, in various stages of life, death and decay. We want soil to have more organic matter. So people assumed adding co…

Thanks! I was looking for that kind of answers! So does that mean that at any given place, there won't be soil for deeper than the roots go? What happens to the soul if all the roots die or are removed (assuming it is not washed away by water)? Does it decay into CO2?

>So does that mean that at any given place, there won't be soil for deeper than the roots go?

In general yes. The exception being where there were roots and someone recently killed all the plants, it takes a while for the soil to die. Also some plants have roots that are just for water, usually taproots, and those can go much deeper than the soil since they don't care about microbes or nutrients, just water.

>What happens to the soul if all the roots die or are removed (assuming it is not washed away by water)? Does it decay into CO2?

Yep. This is how plowing and tilling has destroyed so much top soil. Much of the Americas had several feet of rich, dark topsoil in the 1700s, which we proceeded to plow every year, leaving it bare for months so that the microbes had nothing feeding them, so the exudate feeders start dying, the decomposers decompose their "corpses" and the soil loses a bunch of carbon to the atmosphere as CO2. Over years of conventional farming, you eventually end up losing all the soil and you're left with just dirt, which you now need to add soluble fertilizer to in order to grow a crop.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#204
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a tree is planted, grows, and then for example is burned down and paved over, that'd be true. But if a tree grows and eventually dies in a forest, it'll be replaced with new trees naturally, cancelling out the CO2 leaked from the tree dying. This C02 can also be stalled by harvesting the tree and using it in some way that stops C02 from being released for a longer time than natural.

I did some math on this, and if all the countries in the advanced world planted fast growing trees alongside all paved and unpaved roads, over 40 years, that could potentially be enough to sequester half of all carbon emitted by humans. Given that carbon has a half life of between 20-200 years, and that we appear to be reaching peak emissions, and that a lot of estimates say our emissions should drop by 70% just give…

Please provide numbers.

Numbers are important and should be discussed transparently. Lots of variation in guesstimates, fudging, simplifications, etc cloud the issue and give drastically different "good ways forward". So, please, correct my back-of-the-envelope estimate below:

E.g. from [1]: "Following the estimations of carbon stock including above ground biomass, the total stock in the studied chestnut forests could be ordered as follows: CF3 (105.8 t C ha-1) > CF1 (102.1 t C ha-1) > CF2 (76.3 t C ha-1). The pure chestnut forest CF3 characterized with the highest total carbon stock per hectare and only 20.6 % from it is accumulated in the aboveground tree biomass."

Chestnut is one of the best carbon sequestering forest options we have. Estimate (overly positively) that this capacity cycles over 100y. Fudge down the CO2 and CH4 release from decomposition. That gives ca 100 tC/ha over 100y, aka 1tC/(ha y) or 100tC/(km2 y).

Globally we have ca 35GtCO2 or 10GtC carbon emission per year. Current forests store about 15% of that, but we are currently loosing forests at a rapid rate, and we need to not only reach neutral but also sink the 100y or so of spewing we've already fucked up. So let's keep the number at 10GtC/y.

10GtC/y would then require 100E6km2 of NEW perfect assumption chestnut forest.

We have ca 500E6km2 of total land surface on earth. That means we need to set aside 20% of all land on earth for our NEW chestnut forest. But we don't have that much land that can sustain something like this. Forest grows less well outside of humid temperate to tropical regions. E.g. Antarctica, Sahara, the steppes, boreal forest regions, etc. E.g: All agricultural land, both fields and grazing, is 11% of total land area but over one third of all culturable land, the rest of which is already mostly forest. Even if we covered all growth-possible land area that is not already forest we simply don't have enough land. And we would be out of farmland.

Based on this back of envelope calculation tree planting is not a viable solution. It's a good step in the right direction, but nothing to get the crowds overly excited about.

Instead, e.g. azolla is around 15x more potent as sequestering growth stock than forests, and it grows floating on water. Genetically engineering azolla to grow fast in higher salinity would be a better way to combat climate change. We have plenty of ocean surface area. There will be downsides to such a solution, but compare with other solutions or the horrors of what will be if we don't act...

And I'm sure someone can cook up some gm-franken-algae that is even more potent.

My point, if any, is to make sure to actually run the numbers. Get different estimates then pay skilled scientists to get better estimates. Discuss the numbers, assumptions, simplifications. Don't get the general population stuck on low worth paths when they could start fighting for more valuable ones.

And I don't propose "stop planting trees". I argue that planting trees is a good thing, but only a minor item that is overshadowing more valuable options in the general debate. We need to get people to start facing reality to the point where they can start thinking about compromises. There is no "solution" that don't require drastic changes in how we use our land and live our lives.

Side note: nuclear is the only short term low land-usage footprint solution I can see, and drastic genetic manipulation biomass or vast nuclear powered direct capture are the only long term solutions I can guesstimate. Anyone that can show me interesting alternatives?

[1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285516686_Carbon_st...

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "carbon has a half life of between 20-200 years" mean in this comment?

Good question. I've read in several places that 50% of carbon in the atmosphere is absorbed by the ocean within 20-200 years. I'm guessing that's bad for the ocean, and maybe there's a limit, and the rate probably isn't constant. It's not a half-life at all.

That is horrible for the ocean. Acidification will be killing off whole ecosystems and lead to drastically lower carbon sequestration by our oceans. As well as other horrible problems for us humans, who are still quite dependent on functional living oceans.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#206
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two leaves will absorb more CO2 than one leaf Trees don't absorb CO2 just by existing- they absorb CO2 by growing . The carbon from the air is converted into structure, body of the tree. When the tree stops growing, the CO2 stops being absorbed. Cutting down the tree and using the wood for long-term storage contains all that CO2. Planting new trees means growing trees that absorb more CO2 from the air.

Read about plant physiology

Plants not only make wood, they make nectar, sugars, ambar, they make alkaloids, and they make thousands of seeds also.

Some hard nuts remains have been found after 3000 years. They will survive for as many time than wood or longer. A big walnut can produce 160 Kg of nuts each year. A sequoia can produce a number of pine cones that I can't quantify, but would be probably measurable in thousands of Kg/year. Easily

Even more, upper members of the Plant kingdom produce a very special substance. One of the most inert polymers found in the nature that is much more desirable than wood for our needs of stabilising climate. Its degradation time can be measured in millions of years and appears fosilized or semifosilized in all continents and all ecosystems, with or without trees. Is called sporopollenin, and is the extra hard and waterproof material that makes the outer layer of pollen grains.

You don't need a tree to produce really hard pollen. A humble daisy can sequester carbon in a powder that will easily remain structurally intact for the next 1000 years. Everybody that has a garden and has cultured a big conifer knows that males of this creatures release copious amounts of the substance each year. Also old plants. _Specially_ old decaying plants that are about to die and invest all its reserves on reproduction. Maybe its time to start quantifying it.

Therefore your statement that plants only sequester CO2 when they grow is clearly false. If your maths and calculus do not include nuts and pollen, and do not include soft herbs, flowers and annual weeds they are incomplete, and most probably wrong, IMHO.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you go to plant trees such that you can be certain the trees won't just be cut down in a few years, and also don't simply displace other trees that would otherwise grow? Also, do you keep track of the trees to make sure they actually grow? Just planting the seed or even a sapling is far from sufficient to ensure that carbon sequestration occurs. Young trees are food for a variety of animals and insects. Do y…

> Where do you go to plant trees such that you can be certain the trees won't just be cut down in a few years Your own property, literally anywhere trees can survive.

Few Americans own enough property to allow them to plant anything like as many trees as are required to offset their carbon emissions.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#208
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and seaweed near areas with ocean access. I wonder if you could have wastewater treatment plants that feed seaweed (in a large enclosure with seawater access, done responsibly), then harvest the seaweed, dry it, and send the carbon straight to mines for sequestration. More simply, perhaps farmers could be encouraged to sink waste carbon in the same way. Corn farmers could be encouraged to send the husks to sequestrat…

Rather than immediately sequestering the carbon, it seems to me that it would make economic sense to use fibrous plant materials in products. By taxing competing non ecologically friendly alternatives like fossil oil-based plastics, and sending carbon-containing products to landfill, a greater financial incentive is created for growers, and carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere rapidly and long-term.

Processing and transport requires energy which is unlikely to be renewable. To maximize impact I think we need to find some efficient system, perhaps algae or GMO plants or weeds, that sinks carbon straight into the earth. Perhaps very verdant places like Minnesota, residents could be encouraged to collect deciduous leaves each year and round them up for sequestration (which again requires energy). Or renewable and nuclear power plants could use all of their excess power toward some kind of machine that scrubs co2, which becomes a solid at relatively high temperature of -75C (compared to liquid o2 or n2).

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#209
post #202
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than immediately sequestering the carbon, it seems to me that it would make economic sense to use fibrous plant materials in products. By taxing competing non ecologically friendly alternatives like fossil oil-based plastics, and sending carbon-containing products to landfill, a greater financial incentive is created for growers, and carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere rapidly and long-term.

Is the carbon sequestered when the paper bags are sent to landfil, or do the bags rot releasing a mix of co2 and methane, making this a negative result because of the extra warming effects of methane?

Properly managed landfill is given a cover to prevent gas release, and gas harvested via wells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landfill_gas

Anaerobic decay of carboniferous matter produces much less carbon loss as gas than aerobic decay. Captured methane is destructively utilised, reducing its greenhouse gas concerns. Processing fibre crops into particular bioplastics can also reduce potential for gaseous decay.

This seems favourable when compared to trees which produce large quantities of openly decaying matter (e.g. fallen leaves) throughout their lives, and unless lumbered, will almost entirely decay when they die.

Re: Tree planting: Where can I do it and which type is best?

#210
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than immediately sequestering the carbon, it seems to me that it would make economic sense to use fibrous plant materials in products. By taxing competing non ecologically friendly alternatives like fossil oil-based plastics, and sending carbon-containing products to landfill, a greater financial incentive is created for growers, and carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere rapidly and long-term.

Processing and transport requires energy which is unlikely to be renewable. To maximize impact I think we need to find some efficient system, perhaps algae or GMO plants or weeds, that sinks carbon straight into the earth. Perhaps very verdant places like Minnesota, residents could be encouraged to collect deciduous leaves each year and round them up for sequestration (which again requires energy). Or renewable and n…

We could artificially capture arbitrary amounts of carbon using nuclear and renewable power, but I think it's important to consider how such activities would be paid for.

It seems more politically feasible to me, to incentivise ecologically healthy consumption through taxation (e.g. carbon tax; fuel duties; severance taxes), than to fund grand reparative projects.

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