Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#201

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

inferiorhuman wrote: post #166

khc wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and politic…

What exactly does "submit to chinese censorship" mean in this case? China is already blocking these censored websites- linking them in search results isn't going to magically allow the website to load in the browser.

Even in the example you linked, Yahoo! said "it must respect the laws of governments in jurisdictions where it is operating." How is complying with this different than complying with a U.S. Government subpoena?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#202

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

unholythree wrote: post #193

dirtyid wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?

Cisco's been accused of have assisted China in identifing members of Falun Gong. The first news story I came a across searching (it seems fairly unbiased): https://m.sfgate.com/technology/dotcommentary/article/Cisco-...

In China.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#203

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #180

gurkendoktor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

>bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.

Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders.

That's factually incorrect making your whataboutism in this comment and one where you replied directly to my comment seem like a deliberate attempt to rationalize the Chinese censorship apparatus.

https://www.newsweek.com/american-airlines-bows-china-delete...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#204

Post by educationdata » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

devoply wrote: post #170

gurkendoktor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

Yes exactly until CCP reforms itself there is no point in deepening business relationships which we know will lead to more censorship against what are mostly unjust, inhumane, undemocratic policies of the CCP. Mostly to protect the party and its chosen form of governance which has been rejected by most of the rest of the world.

Imagine this is an online discussion board for doctors, and now we are having a discussion on this topic in the news: "China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...

And now imagine this comment goes on the top:

> Our best surgeons in the U.S. should fly to China to help them with organ transportation. Without us, they will do organ transportation using those organs anyway. But we have better technology and higher successful rate. So why don't we just go there to help them save more lives?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#205

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #174

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Much of Google’s revenue comes from the ability to track individual users. A Chinese Google Search would not be any more censored than Baidu, but it may be a much richer source of information for Chinese law enforcement agencies.

Most of Google's revenue comes from search ads, which are intent-based on the individual query. The display/admob/etc. networks that use demographic targeting don't make up as much of the search take.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#206

Post by pteredactyl » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

yourbandsucks wrote: post #189

pteredactyl wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. If Google helps entities that censor, they censor, or at least are complicit in some way. Further, there's the whole 'national security' angle. Whether real or imagined, some people don't like the idea of US entities helping foreign entities gain a competitive advantage. Not sure how pointing to a feigned moral superiority of 'those who stick their noses up' helps your argument either.

In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google. I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.

Your argument assumes Chinese citizens using Google is somehow better for them than Baidu. I have no idea. But I will not make the claim to know what's best for 1.6B, as you do.

But to go down that road, I'd argue it's worse for the citizens. As others here have pointed out. Google's software enables advanced citizen tracking for the Communist Party of China.

Prove me wrong though. Show me how Google China is better for 1.6B Chinese.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#207

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #199

bduerst wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a search engine is to give results wanted for the user query - showing a dead website probably isn't want the user wants. Google already handles this with DMCA takedowns in the US. If you search a website that has been removed by DMCA, Google will notify you at the bottom of the screen. Telling the user that N number results are hidden because of censorship is probably a better approach.

No, it's probably not what the user wants in that moment, but it's what they should see . And under some circumstances, it may quite literally be the most helpful result. If someone searches for Tiananmen Square, what they really need is a hint that it's time to switch to a VPN.

This comes down to the difference in underlying values of different cultures. Forcing what you think people should want onto others when it's not what they really want isn't effective, even despite your relative moral justifications. There are ways to accomplish notifying the user of censorship which isn't shoving it in their face.

Users simply won't use Google if it's beating them with a stick to remind them that websites are censored and that users should use a VPN. Chinese citizens know about the censorship and most, outside of specific provinces, simply don't care. Those who do already use a VPN.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#208

Post by denzil_correa » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

lvmii wrote: post #59

noelsusman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing US and EU residents to take a significant economic hit in the name of standing on principle against censorship that doesn't affect them.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

It is important to understand why the person was fined. The person held a seminar titled "Basic Information about Islam". It was advertised with an impression of "objective information on Islam". The person described themselves as an expert in Islam doctrine too. During the seminar, the person made a judgment position without facts. The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb peace.

You could have the same position as the fined person and you wouldn't be fined in Austria. The fine was imposed due to the context of the fora/background and the intent of communication, not the position itself.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#209

Post by vatueil » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

Kaiyou wrote: post #53

jkaptur wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you want Google to say? "I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say “originally” because you’ll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now,…

"We are moving our entire business to Europe, because we legally cannot keep the NSA out of your data otherwise." would be a start.

That would just move the ball into GCHQ or DGSE's court.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#210

Post by bad_user » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

I'm happy that Dragonfly is being terminated and I'm sure this is also the direct result of all Google employees who objected to it.

To the Chinese people here on HN try to understand that this is larger than the welfare of the Chinese.

China is now in a position to export its culture to the rest of the world due to its economic strength.

It can, for example, force companies like Google to censor information to the rest of the world and this is a fact.

How do I know this? Because us EU citizens already have to suffer the US views on sex and nudity, among others and the US has the strongest free speech protections of all countries.

The whataboutism on this discussion btw is interesting since this forum would be censored in China and this conversation wouldn't be possible. There's no comparison to be made in terms of free speech. In China you have none.

So I regret the situation, but many of us value our liberal freedoms and we don't want China to export its flavor of communism to us.

Yes I was born and raised in an ex-communist country, I know communism when I see it, I don't want any and I'm prepared to fight for my freedoms.

I do hope to see China become a liberal democracy. But I'm not holding my breath, because I also know what it takes for a revolution to happen and China won't be there for the foreseeable future.