The forgotten joy of soap • Hacker News Board

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#201

Post by mikedilger » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

jazoom wrote: post #6

Negitivefrags wrote: post #3

Does anyone else find shower-gel just completely ineffective? After using it I don't feel clean. I feel like I just rubbed cooking oil on my body. With regular soap bars you get the "clean" feeling which no other product seems to match.

What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rule. That oil is there for a reason.

Yes it does strip the oils, but a proper bar of soap deposits glycerin which acts as a humectant in the same way that those oils do. I've made my own bar soap for many years now and the only dry skin problems I get is the skin on my shins drying out during winter months -- an area that I don't actively wash with soap.

Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has the glycerin stipped out because they can resell it at a much higher price in cosmetics and skin care products.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#202

Post by ebg13 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #182

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some places also sell bar shampoo. Something you can take on planes & can be sold in simple wax paper.

What's the real difference between shampoo and soap anyway? It's two kinds of soap, can't be that much difference.

Shampoo is a detergent, not a soap. Detergents and soaps have different properties. Soaps lose effectiveness and produce soap scum in hard water. Detergents don't. Many body cleansers also cause less skin irritation than your common soaps do because they control alkalinity and add moisturizers.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#203

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

duncanawoods wrote: post #200

benj111 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "Dove doesn't dry your skin like soap can" (uk advertising tagline) which would suggest it isn't soap.

A theseus ship type issue. As okcando says - it contains fatty acid salts which are what we call soap. However, lots of things contain these without becoming soap e.g. cheese and napalm so... yeah.

charred crusty (but still beautiful) woman turns to face the camera

"Napalm doesn't dry you skin like soap can"

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#204

Post by elliekelly » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #196

elliekelly wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any published sources about not using soap but I use Mother Dirt products and my understanding is that nitric oxide ("NO") on the skin has a whole bunch of important functions[1] and a lot of NO on our skin comes from ammonia oxidizing bacteria ("AOB")[2] that colonizes on our skin and eats (metabolizes?) our sweat. In theory, all of our modern hygiene products reduce the AOB (and presumably other "good"…

"someone trying to sell me something" What were they selling? Not washing doesn't seem to provide many business opportunities that I can think of. Posies?

It’s called Mother Dirt[1] they have a line of microbiome friendly personal hygiene products. I only use AO Mist (I think this was the original product) and have been since maybe 2014 or 2015. They’re made in Cambridge, Mass and the original product was developed by (affiliated) bio-tech company AOBiome.

I bought the Mist on a whim after chatting with someone at OpenBiome (AFAIK unaffiliated). I figured I’d try using it instead of face wash for a few months as a little experiment to see how my skin felt.

Well I have lupus so I sometimes get the “butterfly rash” across my cheeks. Anything from hot water to alcohol to a cold can trigger it. I hadn’t even considered that the mist might help with it but I was shockingly and pleasantly surprised that over time the butterfly rash became much more faint so I just kept using it.

It’s entirely possible that it’s the placebo effect but when I get the butterfly rash now it’s imperceptible to anyone who isn’t looking for it. If I were a true scientist I’d stop for a few months and see if if returns with the same intensity but I guess I’m too vain.

[1] https://motherdirt.com/

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#205

Post by ebg13 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #119

detritus wrote: post #10

I've been using bar soap for a good few years now as it was the means of cleaning that I could most-easily buy locally that seemed to incur the least plastic impact. I like to imagine that the invested energy density and cost of transport is better too, compared to gels and liquids. Regardless of all that worthiness though - I just prefer using the stuff and am gently delighted when I walk into my bathroom and minded…

I cannot stand shower gel. It feels like it sticks to my skin, and takes ages to wash off. Soap is straighforward, effective, washes off easily, and is available in many wonderful forms. I currently use Dr Bronner's inimitable liquid soap, and am looking forward to using some small but ruinously expensive bars i bought from Claus Porto while on holiday.

> Soap is straighforward, effective, washes off easily

I suspect that the real reason why soap feels like it washes off more easily is that it leaves a layer of soap scum on your skin and detergents don't. Those detergents also likely have moisturizers added to compensate for stripping off all of the natural oils that protect your skin.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#206

Post by darkarmani » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

reggieband wrote: post #151

throw0101a wrote: post #29

Soaps can strip oils from your skin and kill the biome. I recently ran across the book Beyond Soap by Dr. Sandy Skotnicki, a dermatologist who has a practice and teaches in Toronto: * https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Soap-Truth-Beautiful-Healthy/d... Most of the products we use may get the job done, but they tend to be heavy handed in the chemicals they use. A list of products she recommends that her clients use: * http…

That interview was really interesting. She mentioned light-bulb moments but her description of the skin biome really hit for me. I think she is right that the next 10 years of body science is going to focus on bacteria biome in guts AND skin. She also hit the nail on the head about how men shower. I cover every inch of my body with soap at least once a day. I have one soap for my body, one for my hair and another for…

> I never talk to my friends about their cleaning regimes just like I don't have serious discussions about defecation.

I'm here for you, man, when you want to talk.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#207

Post by mprev » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 10:38 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #33

I stopped washing with soap 6 years ago and never looked back. For the first month, my skin was so greasy all the time that it felt like I'd been wearing the same clothes for a week, just an hour after putting them on, but then my skin finally adjusted to the new normal. My skin is soft - much too soft for a man of my age, according to my wife. I have no body odor, even after a heavy workout where I'm still covered i…

Even your backside? I mean, even if you wipe very well then surely without soap you’re never actually clean.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#208

Post by jazoom » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

mikedilger wrote: post #201

jazoom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're interpreting as "clean feeling" is likely stripping your skin of its protective oils. That's why we (doctors) don't recommend soaps as a general rule. That oil is there for a reason.

Yes it does strip the oils, but a proper bar of soap deposits glycerin which acts as a humectant in the same way that those oils do. I've made my own bar soap for many years now and the only dry skin problems I get is the skin on my shins drying out during winter months -- an area that I don't actively wash with soap. Homemade or clasical bar soap contains glycerin naturally. Commercially made bar soap usually has th…

Some people smoke for 50 years and never get lung cancer.

Body oils have compounds in them that do things other than act as a simple emollient.

I'm not trying to convince you to change what you're doing. I'm just saying it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#209

Post by novok » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #171

novok wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof, do you also wear gloves 24/7 to protect yourself from the dirty world out there too? Unless your immunocomprimised or old, your body's immune system can handle the everyday bacteria that is everywhere in the world.

There's a reason that food safety protocols in the restaurant biz are pretty strict: you don't get a biological adaptation to eating feces by eating a little feces here and there. There's a reason (well, really, several) humanity switched to processing food and water with heat (cooking meat, drinking coffee and tea) when we were coming down out of the trees. Trying to make fun of someone who's being careful about wha…

The hypochondriac / overactive purity instinct / easy to insult temperament hurts their life and the life of people around them by making them annoying and unpleasant to be around. Also by keeping things super 'clean', they increase the likelihood of their children to develop lifelong allergies. They deserve to be mocked.

Food processing laws are there because certain bad things do happen at scale in factories & restaurants that don't happen in home kitchens and when they are personally eating things in the world around them. The laws have to protect the very young, sick and the very old with their compromised immune systems. So there are different standards for different circumstances.

There is also a matter of degree. A commercial food chef needs to wash their hands, a healthy adult person eating prepared meals by other people doesn't need to wear gloves everywhere to be safe.

Also a lot of restaurants and farms are pretty gross places, go work at a fast food place, butcher, meat processing factory and cow farm to see how gross it gets, even with food safety laws & inspections.

Re: The forgotten joy of soap

#210

Post by reggieband » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 12:10 AM UTC

darkarmani wrote: post #206

reggieband wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That interview was really interesting. She mentioned light-bulb moments but her description of the skin biome really hit for me. I think she is right that the next 10 years of body science is going to focus on bacteria biome in guts AND skin. She also hit the nail on the head about how men shower. I cover every inch of my body with soap at least once a day. I have one soap for my body, one for my hair and another for…

> I never talk to my friends about their cleaning regimes just like I don't have serious discussions about defecation. I'm here for you, man, when you want to talk.

Want to start a podcast?