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A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

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Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#201

Post by module0000 »

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

> I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them.

I do the exact same thing, and haven't met anyone else that did it. I thought I was a weirdo all this time! My learning process is (as theorized by me):

1. Hear/see instructor say something

2. Mentally digest and understand it

3. Write down the product of understanding it

I think #2 is the most important step, and the big purpose of step #3 is validating that I actually performed step #2.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#202

Post by JimBrimble35 »

sjogress wrote: post #102
kendallpark wrote: post #27

My current (digital) handwritten note setup: - iPad Pro with (Gen 1 :sadface:) Apple Pencil. - Screen protector that gives a significant amount of friction to the screen so that it feels closer to paper. [1] - Goodnotes 5 or Notability (I use both--depends on the circumstances). [2] - A rule: iPad is solely a reading/studying/note-taking device. No keyboard, no social media apps. - Bonus: Twelve South BookBook case.…

Personally, I'm far too undisciplined to enforce such rules on a tablet, so I got a Remarkable instead. Essentially an e-ink reader with handwriting capabilities.

I've wanted something like the Remarkable for years, but the cost is still way too high. The rocketbook has been a decent interim solution, but there is always the issue that I can't re-load and modify old notes.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#203

Post by Cederfjard »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #100
Cederfjard wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In lectures, note-taking at all should be avoided, most of the time. That's a very strong statement that I guess is based on your own personal experience? If I can provide my own subjective opinion and educated guess, I do agree that taking notes verbatim feels close to pointless. You need to take in what you're hearing and grok it before you jot down your summary. Then you can go revisit your notes later to practic…

My strong statement is first of all based on the specific act of note taking in the specific situation of lectures for the specific goal of learning. You seem to conflate taking no notes with not listening. If the only point of the note-taking is to ensure the listening and mental engagement, then I doubt that's the most effective way.

The idea is that engaging with the material (i.e. breaking it down, summarizing it and putting it on paper) helps with retention compared to just taking it in and trying to understand it in your head. I can tell you don't believe in that, but that's what the argument is.

>You seem to conflate taking no notes with not listening. If the only point of the note-taking is to ensure the listening and mental engagement, then I doubt that's the most effective way.

I honestly can't see how you get this from my comment.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#204

Post by TimTheTinker »

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I had a high school teacher who described what he called a failsafe study method: (1) Take copious notes during lectures, save them in a binder. (2) Every weekday (5 days/week) during the term, read through all class notes from beginning to end. (3) Assuming you've done the above, you won't have to study for a test. But this would only work for memorization-heavy material where all the content is presented during lectures and you're able to write down the contents.

On the other hand, I once had a physics professor in college who spent each lecture rigorously proving the theorems and formulas we'd be using in the homework/tests. Only about 5 minutes (at the beginning) were dedicated to solving problems like what we'd be tested on, and then only in response to specific questions from students. We were pretty much on our own, since most were commuter students (this was Cal Poly Pomona) and couldn't easily come to office hours.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#205

Post by Hermitian909 »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #97
Hermitian909 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another data point, I take notes almost almost solely for increased recollection, I've never really studied them. The physical act of writing down a phrase or idea emphasizes it in my memory to such a noticeable degree that if I lack writing utensils I will mime the action; the physical notes themselves are rarely useful once made. I find this also works in settings that are not live, I am able to work through tex…

Maybe you would do even better just imagining writing it down on paper or actively building mental representations. But if it works well enough, why not? The act of writing notes may involve mental processing or not. If it's just a matter of concentration and focus, there might be better remedies.

Imagining writing it down would keep me from actively building mental representations in most situations :)

The writing is semi-automatic and does not merely involve verbatim quotes from others. If today I were to attend a lecture or talk and something the speaker said prompted some visual insight I would immediately draw it as part of my note-taking process. The whole reason I began taking such copious notes, in fact, was the realization that if I didn't write these things down I often needed to have an insight two to three times for it to become a permanent part of my mental model of a problem space, rather than the once.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#206

Post by vedantroy »

Sometimes I feel like I'm forced to take verbatim notes on my computer, even though I know that's bad for my learning.

Specifically, I'm reading a very detailed textbook on databases. I feel that if I don't take notes I will forget most of the content in the textbook because the textbook is so information dense, but at the same time, whenever I take notes they end up being word-for-word copies of the text because the textbook is already so concise/word-efficient.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#207

Post by sebringj »

I would think writing in itself is not the key, rather the effort to take the note itself in how it creates stronger connections to form clearer memories. If you had a laptop and had to create diagrams in software describing the lesson, I would have to believe this would be at least as effective if not more if it engaged more of your brain to accomplish this.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#208

Post by hinkley »

seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

My method of learning and recall has changed over the decades so I hesitate to offer any advice as universal.

Children often have a 'photographic memory' until around puberty but in my case it lasted well into my late teens. I recall on a number of tests knowing that I had written the answer down, and even where on the page of notes the answer was. Several times I managed to wrestle the answer out of my brain by finishing the rest of the test and then running the clock down trying to picture the page of notes.

But today I am pretty close to functionally aphantasic. My dominant mental model is that I 'think in shapes'. I don't see the shapes, its more like I feel them. And that suffices for many things like getting replacement parts at the hardware store, or reassembling something I've taken apart. It's only with some difficulty that I can 'picture' an item. It's like I have a mind castle but wear a blindfold.

Anyway, in college I discovered that my recall of things I wrote down was starting to fail. If I wrote down something and lost the notes I was screwed. Todo lists were the first thing I cut out. My odds of remembering to do something by willing myself to remember were far better than having notes getting covered by a book.

Now I have electronic notes and some reminders, but if I lost my phone and my backups, my life would unravel.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#209

Post by hinkley »

Deinos wrote: post #157
seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

Instead of throwing out my notes, I tend to "refactor" them multiple times, condensing them down to the bare minimum. By the time I get them to that point, I no longer need them. I also tend to utilize multiple mediums: first note taking is writte; then I condense them to a digital format; I print that off and highlight, work in the margins, etc.;I will sometimes rewrite them a final time, depending on difficulty of…

See for me it was always sort of the opposite.

My recall of things I got wrong on the tests is almost visceral, like it was traumatic that I was wrong. I figured this out pretty young and my studying habit was very similar to the methods employed for learning foreign language vocabulary or typing; progressively focus on the things the person still gets wrong.

So I'd read my notes and highlight or copy out only the facts that I found myself being surprised or flummoxed by. I'd go over those a few times, do one more scan of my entire notes, and sit before the test just going over the hard ones again until the instructor started handing out the test.

Re: A Learning Secret: Don't Take Notes with a Laptop (2014)

#210

Post by unimpressive »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #204
seventhtiger wrote: post #116

I tended to be in the top of the classes I was in and as far as I've seen my method was somewhat different. I also only take notes on paper, but more importantly, I throw all my notes out as soon as I finish writing them. For me studying is the act of writing the notes. The purpose of notes was never to read them later. That's why writing on paper is important to me. It's not about the qualities and convenience of th…

I had a high school teacher who described what he called a failsafe study method: (1) Take copious notes during lectures, save them in a binder. (2) Every weekday (5 days/week) during the term, read through all class notes from beginning to end. (3) Assuming you've done the above, you won't have to study for a test. But this would only work for memorization-heavy material where all the content is presented during lec…

>I had a high school teacher who described what he called a failsafe study method:...

At this point you should just use spaced repetition. It's what I did, it has the same effects for a lot less work.

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