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Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

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201–210 of 248 posts

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#201
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear looks bad if you restrict it to 1940's technology. The research in nuclear is still been done very actively. My country is putting hundreds of millions per year into nuclear research. But even the new technologies are not competitive. The infrastructure and maintenance required for nuclear technologies is vastly more expensive than solar. The thorium hype is moot because nobody ever demonstrated a working m…

Regarding the earth's rotation, this webpage disagrees: https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/Drivers "The rotation of the earth does have an effect on the direction of the wind, but it does not create it. Wind is primarily driven by differences in air pressure. These variations in air pressure are due to temperature differences caused by variations in solar energy received at the surface of the earth."

Conservation of angular momentum doesn't care about the origin of those winds. If you harvesting net average west wind you are slowing down earths rotation.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#202
post #30
post #4

Haven't nuclear waste recycling and safety features gotten really good in the past few decades? I feel like not many people know just how little waste is created with modern recycling and just how safe nuclear is with modern safety features. Seems like we need a positive PR campaign to help convince folks that nuclear is way better than fossil fuels. This could easily be bipartisan.

There's really two kinds of waste: spent fuel (which can be effectively recycled, leaving only a tiny bit of extremely dangerous lanthanides, actinides, and plutonium), and "lower level" waste. The latter includes pretty much every other part of the reactor building after it's decomissioned. > positive PR campaign The nuclear industry has been at this for decades; at this stage, the PR is part of the problem. My view…

We can build plants with SMRs. These should fix most of the issues of larger plants except maybe decomissioning. It should be easier to decomission 12 x 60 MW modules instead of a single 720 MW utility scale reactor. At least you can transport the smaller modules without dissasembly.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#203
post #178
post #86

Looking at mid term solutions: Nuclear fission is just not cost effective if you factor in all total cost of a building a secure nuclear power plant and safely dismantling it after its lifetime. Also uranium ore is a limited non renewable resource. Nuclear fusion looks similarly bad but at least deuterium and tritium is rather abundant. Looking at ultra long term solutions: Wind power is nothing else than reducing th…

You said it yourself, nuclear is bad for the private sector as they can't rake the same returns as dirtier technologies. So why shouldn't we just let the public government do it? The U.S. Navy has more nuclear reactor experience than any entity in the world.

Yes, if you like communism then it is feasable to give away nuclear energy "for free". In the free market nuclear does not have a chance.

The military has specilized needs and is mainly interested in nuclear wheapons. Using the infrastucture to generate power is more or less a free "waste product" of maintaining that infrastructure.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of news pieces about nuclear are unrealistically rosy. Waste reprocessing isn't really all that new and it doesn't really get rid of waste. It replaces much of the solid waste with even more liquid waste. The problem with having any discussion of nuclear is agreeing upon the facts. It's crazy hard to find an unbiased source. If you asked a random bystander why we haven't built nuclear reactors in recent years,…

Aren't the "environmentalists" the ones that are creating the mood that makes it hard to invest in nuclear?

Investors at large aren't phased by things like the environment. There's too many who would invest either way if the profit potential was clear. So far, all nuclear plants have required large subsides, taken over a decade to build and open, and have cost far more than originally anticipated. Investors often look to past performance as a predictor of likely returns. There's no appetite for this kind of investment nowadays.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 20 years ago was essentially a zero point for the statistic they cite. It was less than 5 gigawatts, anyway. It grew by over 100 times in that 20 years, and it will be "unprecedented" to grow by 5 times in the next 20? Do you expect the growth rate of Google over the next 20 years will be the same as it was between 1999 and today? As things mature you don't get the same level of exponential growth. Meanwhile the su…

Was this reply intended to go here? I made no predictions. I complained about the word "unprecedented". Are you holding IEA to the same standard you're attempting to apply here? ISTM you've steelmanned their deception to the point that it no longer resembles TFA. They didn't include any of this sophistry. Have all the factories that got us to this level of (obviously) installed capacity burned down recently? Have the…

> I complained about the word "unprecedented".

If you want to be a stickler, what that actually means is that it has never happened before. Have we ever installed ~2500 GW of new photovoltaic generation capacity over a twenty year period? Of any individual generation method?

> Have all the factories that got us to this level of (obviously) installed capacity burned down recently? Have the investors who invested in them and the engineers who built them all died?

It's not just a question of supply. It's also a question of demand.

Subsidizing five times as much capacity would require five time as much government money, which may not be available. If the subsidies end, the demand curve takes a hit.

In addition to that, the fact that solar only generates during the day hasn't yet become an issue because the daytime demand is higher, so solar can currently be efficiently used to satisfy the demand differential between day and night. But once there is enough solar generating capacity to satisfy the full differential, that efficiency ends and you start having to deal with expensive energy storage or paying capital and maintenance for alternative generation which is idle and unproductive half the day, effectively requiring the cost of solar to fall lower than the alternative's fuel/operating cost only and not the total cost including capital and maintenance, because the capital and maintenance then have to be paid anyway to make the capacity available at night.

It has also been getting installed more in the locations amenable to it -- places with more sunlight, clearer skies and less expensive land. Notice that a lot of the existing capacity is in places like Arizona and not places like Seattle. But once the demand in those locations is satisfied, you have to move to places without those characteristics and you get less power at higher cost.

Meanwhile just because you have the existing supply doesn't mean you have the existing supply. You need the price to fall to the level that it becomes economical to generate power even for use at night in Seattle, but that price may be lower than the price that customers in Asia and South America would pay, so even if the supply exists, it ends up going somewhere else first.

All this to say that extrapolating from an exponential curve is generally wrong sooner or later, and frequently sooner.

> Solar capacity will rise to 100% of today's total capacity, and it still won't displace lots of other energy sources. Why? Because when power is cheaper and has fewer negative externalities, we'll use more of it.

If it becomes genuinely cheaper even in northern cities and even with the cost of energy storage, it will displace lots of other energy sources and we'll use more of it. But that's still speculation that may or may not ever actually happen. And maybe it does, but it's still justifiable to be prepared if it doesn't.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The growth rate for solar is x10/8 years, so in 20 years we are at >90% solar.

I'd believe 90% of current capacity, but it won't get to that portion of total capacity. Solar isn't perfect for every situation. Even so, when energy is cheaper with fewer negative externalities, we'll use more of it.

capacity growth is already factored in: Global energy consumption is doubling only every 20 years.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#207
post #27

Placing economic sanctions on oil states which want to build nuclear reactors does seem counterproductive wrt climate goals.

However in the case of Iran where they have both stated and have made significant nuclear weapons progress as well as expressed an official position of “wiping Israel off the map,” it would be a folly. But Europe, North and South America and much of Africa doesn’t have destroying another county as a stated ambition. Iran, for example, could be pursing rapid expansion of solar in addition to nuclear if getting off fos…

Only one government has ever used nuclear weapons.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#208
post #48
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of this: https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/866313289306963969/p... tl;dr The International Energy Agency kept predicting, year after year, in the face of all the evidence, that solar production would plateau.

That's quite impressively wrong from the IEA. I wonder how come.

If you could predict the future, would you work for the IEA?

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#209
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Solar is winning because of economics. Nuclear is losing because of economics.

And yet, for the same quantity of energy over the same timeframe, nuclear is cheaper. It's not so much that it loses because of economics, it's losing because of the perceived uncertainty of the economics.

New nuclear is certainly not cheaper. And we will soon be at the point where operating existing nuclear is not cheaper.

Re: Steep decline in nuclear power would threaten energy security and climate goals

#210
post #79
post #4

Haven't nuclear waste recycling and safety features gotten really good in the past few decades? I feel like not many people know just how little waste is created with modern recycling and just how safe nuclear is with modern safety features. Seems like we need a positive PR campaign to help convince folks that nuclear is way better than fossil fuels. This could easily be bipartisan.

People also overestimate the amount of waste. Very little waste is produced. Also, the only safety feature needed to store nuclear waste is water.

People also overestimate how much waste disposal has contributed to the current economic failure of nuclear power.
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