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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#201

Post by eropple »

rayiner wrote: post #198
eropple wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'ardy42 is presenting the part of the argument that Lyft and Uber can't say aloud but almost certainly believe. Lyft and Uber have a vested interest in making their objection seem "pro-consumer," when they're primarily anti-worker; lower prices to the consumer pumps up the demand curve and Lyft makes more money.

> Lyft and Uber have a vested interest in making their objection seem "pro-consumer," when they're primarily anti-worker; Given that Lyft and Uber are losing money, there is no difference between the two. Uber and Lyft are just vehicles (hah) for consumers to make taxi drivers work for less than what taxi drivers used to make. People use Lyft and Uber because it’s cheaper than taxis. Since Uber and Lyft don’t make an…

I mean, fair cop. Though a lot of my Uber and Lyft use is with the endless discounted ride offers I get, which seems to just be a transfer from investors to...well...me.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#202

Post by richardknop »

dnautics wrote: post #169
thebradbain wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber and Lyft don’t let their drivers set rates, but the argument (and law) is that they should — since Uber won a judgement saying their drivers were contractors, not employees, their drivers, then, are legally entitled the right to charging their own rate. For a lot of intents and purposes Uber/Lyft wanted drivers to be classified as contractors so they wouldn’t be subject to laws re: minimum wage for employees, bu…

Have you ever done contract coding? You don't always get to set the rates, because the rate for the contract is posted, and the other side is not going to negotiate.

Contractor here. Well you are not obligated to accept the contract if the rate is too low. These Lyft / Uber drivers do the same thing, the rate offered by Lyft/Uber for a ride is too low so they decline and only accept if they get their preferred rate. The same as software engineer contractor does, I don't accept every contract opportunity when I am in between contracts.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#203

Post by ummonk »

robmaister wrote: post #188
dnautics wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever done contract coding? You don't always get to set the rates, because the rate for the contract is posted, and the other side is not going to negotiate.

The thing about contracting is you don't have to take the job if they aren't willing to negotiate. If no one wants to build your website for $5, then the client is either going to have to pay more, or not make a website. All of the drivers around that airport incur roughly the same costs for gas, wear and tear, rent, etc. So while you might find someone halfway across the world to build your website for $5, you won't…

Drivers are free to stop accepting rides whenever they want.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#204

Post by eropple »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #190
thrill wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not accepting a ride until an agreed (the rider can always cancel the ride) price is met is entirely different than taking a longer route after a job has started.

You're avoiding the point, which is the collusion and artificial price increase. That's fraudulent. Edit: Whether this is a "regulated market" is a red herring and irrelevant.

"Fraudulent" is a word that means things. Can you please substantiate your claim beyond just the assertion?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#205

Post by NotPaidToPost »

eropple wrote: post #204
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're avoiding the point, which is the collusion and artificial price increase. That's fraudulent. Edit: Whether this is a "regulated market" is a red herring and irrelevant.

"Fraudulent" is a word that means things. Can you please substantiate your claim beyond just the assertion?

That's what I keep doing...

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#206

Post by Jeff_Brown »

eropple wrote: post #158
Jeff_Brown wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of other options implies a more elastic supply curve, but implies nothing about demand. That passengers suffer from a price surge does not assume an inelastic demand, or even a downward-sloping one. If you pay a higher price, you're suffering more, even if somehow it leads you to buy more of that thing.

Eh--"suffering" seems a bit dramatic; as economic transactions go, the up-front price quote by Lyft and Uber makes it pretty transparent and the options available to depart DCA put an upper bound on costs. But I was more referring to how Lyft and Uber make more money off of shorter, cheaper rides. They do make more from longer rides, because of percentages, but my understanding is that volume makes them much more mon…

These are good points.

By "suffering" I just meant "paying (someone, maybe another ride service) for it".

If higher prices depress volume, then some of the very drivers temporarily striking to raise the price end up paying for it, by ending up without a client. If all the drivers gain from it, then the airport demand for their Lyft services in particular (as opposed to demand for other ride companies) would in fact appear to be pretty inelastic. (Both seem plausible to me.)

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#207

Post by robmaister »

mattkrause wrote: post #87
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FICA tax rate for self-employed under $128k/yr is 15.3%. Effective tax rates for self-employed workers can reach close to 50%.

50% total, or 50% marginal? There’s a world of difference between the two....

One year I made around minimum wage (paying myself just barely enough to live during the early stage of a startup) and paid I think around 25% effective just for federal.

I now make a lot more than that with a W2 job as my primary source of income and my effective federal tax rate was about half of what it was that year.

IMO FICA cap should be raised significantly and the rate should be reduced. There are entry-level FAANG employees who aren't paying their full salary into it. But that's an entirely different topic.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#208

Post by kevin_b_er »

mikeash wrote: post #50
metalliqaz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, agreed, but these guys are going for maximum rate, so they have to get as many as possible.

Indeed. And as the rate grows higher, there’s ever more incentive to defect from the scheme. This should be a case study taught in Economics 101, it’s so pure and clear!

Well, yes. It will settle at the rate they're actually willing to be paid, not the one their "employer" is setting for them.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#209

Post by ikeboy »

They can just counteract this by refusing to turn on surge pricing if they detect a large number of drivers disappearing if they predict that they'll come back shortly. Should be easy to predict that pattern and counteract it, unless the drivers are willing to skip work for an extended period of time.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#210

Post by eropple »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #205
eropple wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fraudulent" is a word that means things. Can you please substantiate your claim beyond just the assertion?

That's what I keep doing...

To this point, I haven't seen it. Yes, there's collective action. You could even call it "artificial". Where's the fraud? How is it thus not fraudulent when Uber and Lyft run me and my girlfriend through their pricing models and quote me two bucks more for the same ride?

Why is this driver behavior fraud--and not the collective behavior of these ride-on-demand companies in general?

Hell, let's go back to first principles: why is choosing to refuse to take rides below a certain price ever "fraudulent"? It might be "bad", it might even violate the terms of a contract with Lyft/Uber and thus be grounds for termination of the relationship between the driver and the ride-on-demand company, but how is it "fraudulent"?

Words mean things.

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