But why? They tested not sold metal. The only possible reason is the metal company paid them.
Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
201–210 of 231 posts
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Individuals charged with crimes are defended by attorneys without visibly participating in their criminal trials all the time. Lack of visible participation is far from lack of participation. In the US due process requires the defendant's presence to commence a criminal trial. Once charges have been brought the defendant has a right (that can in some circumstances be waived) to attend and participate in every stage…
I feel like if we were scaling this to a corporation then all shareholders would potentially have a right to be present for the trial? There might (terribly) be some sane precedent set prior to the 13th amendment regarding the rights of slave owners to be present at trial for their slaves - I'm 100% anti-slavery but it is the last instance I'm aware of that might yield light on what rights legal persons who partially…
This would be an interesting law school exam question :) Is there a de minimus ownership that triggers a shareholders right to be present? Were slave owners permitted to mount a defense on behalf of their accused slaves?
Post your question on r/legaladviceofftopic I bet you'll get some very interesting answers...
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#203Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
The deferred prosecution agreement essentially means that as long as the SEI adheres to the financial terms of the plea agreement the government will eventually drop the charges [0]. That's an amazing deal in its generosity and I'm sure that the financial penalties levied are outweighed by the financial gain realized over the years of their fraudulent activity. The rationale for not pursuing the company for the full…
> rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me Satellites are usually insured. (Not sure about NASA protocol, though.) If that’s the case, the insurer will sue. Shareholder lawsuits will also, naturally, follow, as will suits from all the other customers. Agree, though, that it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.
so insurance company sues and recovers? Is that the rationale?
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it. However, no one was forced to compromise quality. One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise qualit…
> One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. Do that too much, and you may just go out of business yourself (or have to radically reduce operations).
Of course you might.
Or, you might have to work harder and smarter to find better options.
If you are not sufficiently diligent and intelligent, it may seem that when things get tough because one sector is in a race to the bottom, that because , it's ok to just cut corners, falsify tests, etc.
Once you start doing that, you have decided that you'd rather be a rich fraud than a poor honest person.
You may think that is OK. I do not.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#206Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's the essence of the issue exactly. There is fraud everywhere, but in most of the world fraud isn't a successful business model. In the PRC, it kind of is.
Although fraud is no doubt rampant in Chinese industry, the penalties are... rather more severe. You had better make sure your scheme doesn't piss off the wrong people. The PRC's military and aerospace supply chains are probably in pretty good shape.
Agreed, but the scenario we’re discussing is a US company sourcing parts from a Chinese company. The PRC’s stiff penalties don’t protect the consumer in this scenario.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Corporations are frequently enough charged with crimes to necessitate the existence of corporate lawyers (i.e. you). The discussion of whether corporate manslaughter should be a thing was never one that hinged on whether it would be unconstitutional... Just generally, I'm not buying this > After all, you can't charge a "person" with a crime if that "person" isn't there to defend themselves. especially since people ca…
To be clear I'm not saying a corporation can't be charged with a crime. Just that a corporation charged with a crime almost never goes to trial. And I don't know a single corporate attorney who has ever handled a criminal case for a corporation. We negotiate contracts, not plea agreements. So while I'm not at all a criminal attorney (and I don't pretend to be an expert here) a defendant's presence at a criminal trial…
(Gotta love all the non-lawyers arguing with a corporate lawyer over corporate law.)
If people could be criminally charged "in absentia", then Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, etc would be convicted of things while they were in hiding.
I think a better analogy is that they don't convict dead people of crimes. There's nothing to be gained from that.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete? That kind of depends on whether you agree with ancaps on the scope and definition of individual rights; it is, certainly, ancap-consistent.
Is there another rebuttal to Rayiner you might have that would be persuasive to someone who is not sympathetic to ancap philosophy?
The idea that rights are the sole domain of individuals and that groups (whether constituted as states or otherwise) have powers, but not rights (powers which are legitimate only so far as they extend from and do not contradict individual rights), is fundamental to classical liberalism, not a belief unique to those “sympathetic to ancap philosophy”.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Last time I was up for jury duty, I was asked to consider a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving a stolen Xbox.
Was it in the USA? I'm surprised there would be a jury on a theft case. Where I am from, I heard jury are limited to criminal courts where the minimal case is something like manslaughter.
Yes, in the US. The Constitution guarantees the right to a jury trial for any “serious” offense, which apparently means anything where the potential sentence is greater than six months. Individual states can grant the right to a jury trial for lesser offenses as well if they wish.