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Is everything an MLM

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Re: Is everything an MLM

#201

Post by deburo »

iheartpotatoes wrote: post #137
seibelj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

"If I make more money there is not someone else losing." Actually, that's exactly how it works: we can't both own the same dollar. Duh.

Exchanging a dollar for a product means that I value the product more than the dollar. I didn't lose in this trade. Now, if I think the product is overpriced, in the current market I'd wait for it or a competitor's product to lower its price since prices tend to vary overtime. If the product comes from a monopoly, then you're doomed. Anyhow, the zero-sum game does not apply to the free market.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#202

Post by SubiculumCode »

ryandrake wrote: post #180
SubiculumCode wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. But if both persons are productive then the Fed is more likely to inject another dollar or two into circulation.

When the money supply increases, the pie isn't growing: There are just more, smaller slices available.

Nope. I'm pretty sure the world is more wealthy by almost every economic measure than it was two centuries ago.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#203

Post by hawski »

> just the increasingly ambivalent structure, the ever-reproducing base

This reminds me of the city from Blame! manga. Ever-growing megastructure without any thought. Without any external control, just expanding. Something that began on Earth and now is becoming a Dyson sphere.

Even though there are specific people that profit from current economy, will they profit forever if things will proceed as they are? Will they remain on top when the environment will crumble around us? It certainly is a different scale, so on small scale they will win, but in the long run no-one wins.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#204

Post by Frondo »

seibelj wrote: post #169
petra wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A government bureaucrat managing the country’s only deodorant factory could never possibly match the range of options and preferences that the market has provided me. There aren't only two options - the free market, or soviet russia. there are many more.

I would argue that preventing an individual from creating a new deodorant (or any typical consumer product) because "there is already enough of them" is a defining philosophical difference - either you are for freedom, or you are for collective coercion. In my opinion, there are never enough deodorant brands. If a new entrant wants to make a new product, it will succeed or fail. It may compete on price or quality, it…

"either you are for freedom, or you are for collective coercion."

This is a false dichotomy, and the happiest nations on earth have a mix of market regulation and individual freedom.

And, that's an odd dig at life in Soviet Russia. It certainly was not the worst way of life -- I've known quite a few people living in all parts of the world who grew up in the Soviet system and longed for it, wishing for a return to that way of life while knowing it'd never happen.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#205

Post by westiseast »

p1esk wrote: post #125
seibelj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

How can you be that naive? On the large scale, marketing (which includes paid for by industry, biased scientific studies) is what shapes people’s desires. Vast majority of people are perfectly happy with letting someone else choose for them, and even smart people fall for it. It has truly became a fundamental principle of our society.

I think thats a bad cliche.

If I break down my spending, most goes on food (I have no rent/mortgage), the next biggest item are essentials like utilities/council tax/bills, then car bills (insurance, petrol, repairs), then the kids then personal luxuries for me and my wife.

Marketers might shape how I spend my food budget (ie on which brands/products) but I still need food. Marketers influenced my choice of car, but I still need a car with certain qualities (big, room for kids and bikes, reliable). If I had to pay rent, a vast portion of my income would go on that - how is this being influenced by marketers?

If PR/advertising/marketing became illegal tomorrow, people would still continue to spend most of their income on a place to live, food to eat, utilities, a car and their kids education.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#206

Post by secabeen »

varjag wrote: post #192
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kibbutz are pretty egalitarian. The New Testament describes the early Christians as living with everything in common ownership. Not every attempt to be equally valued has resulted in the disparities you suggest. The problem is top-down vs bottom-up ... eg https://www.quora.com/How-did-Karl-Marx-define-socialism/ans... . Genuine question, which bits of the Soviet projects were targetting making everyone equal -- all I…

> which bits of the Soviet projects were targetting making everyone equal Private property of means of production and accumulation of capital were outlawed. It was the best attempt to follow Marx tenets. > It strikes me that in all cases a portion of society wanted to impose communism, those who didn't want to give up their supremacy (of power or wealth) perverted that system. No. The latter were massacred in 1918. T…

That mainly seems to happen at the large scale. At the small, community scale, there are plenty of examples of communal societies with many decades of history that continue as an ongoing concern. For example, the Bruderhof's in New York and Pennsylvania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruderhof_Communities

Re: Is everything an MLM

#207

Post by UnpossibleJim »

orthecreedence wrote: post #139
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem comes in that these systems of government only ever work on paper. People lay out Communism, socialism and capitalism as though they're these absolutes and forget that they have to exist in the real world run by real people, warts and all. People will find cracks in the system, exploit them and widen them to make them better for their particular group. Whatever "ism" you conjure is no panacea for whatever…

Right, agreed. The problem with our current system in the US is the "cracks" are being exploited by those who have massive amounts of capital, and they've engineered the system so they continuously control a growing amount of it. So wealth is being siphoned out of the economy at an alarming rate and we now essentially have an economic plutocracy. But, gee, that's fine because those people earned that money...nevermin…

I'm curious. Did you take my post as pro capitalism? Or pro status quo? And out of curiosity, what exactly was it that pointed to that conclusion? It really wasn't my intention, is all and that's why I'm curious and you seem pretty bent out of shape, or am I misreading the, "But, gee, that's fine because those people earned that money...nevermind that's it's economically ineffective."

Re: Is everything an MLM

#208

Post by p1esk »

sridca wrote: post #174
rectang wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. In real-world "free" markets, the poor have their choices made for them by the wealthy.

Hah, exactly. Capitalism is not perfect; apparently it is the better of the alternatives we have right now. In order to effect fundamental change, and find a better alternative to capitalism, each human being needs to fundamentally change themselves--yet apparently no one is willing to do that. As long as we let instinctual passions like desire, and social emotions like envy, hold sway over us so will continue to exi…

Don’t know why this is being downvoted. To someone who witnessed the transition from forced “socialism” to brutal capitalism in Russia it makes total sense.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#209

Post by sametmax »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #195
sametmax wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the regular economy, which is not the topic of this thread. We are talking about wealthy people becoming rich without contributing. Renting has diminushing return for the society. Some things like automatic trading have none.

But that's even better, right? If I pay you $500 for an iPhone, I get an iPhone. If you take that money and spend it, it's "the regular economy" again, and I have to provide whatever you bought. If you don't spend the money then I don't have to give you anything, but I still got an iPhone. The real problem with this is that then I have to borrow money to buy the iPhone but there is no way for me to ever pay it back,…

You assume rich people spend all their money. They don't. The accumulate, to buy more renting power to accumulate more. It's getting the economy more and more static.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#210

Post by icxa »

petra wrote: post #149
sverige wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't you arguing directly that we should all live in soviet-style housing blocks? Concrete is good enough, right? Then we'd all be equal.

soviet-style housing is a bit extreme. But what's wrong with being equal ?

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
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