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Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

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Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#201

Post by feenix566 »

kingo55 wrote: post #184
rqs wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be easier to understand if you've followed the movement. Most of those companies are not forcing their employees to work 996 on paper. But if you don't, then first, your team leader will give you some hint to ask you to stay longer. If you still don't, you will be fired for any number of reasons (KPI is too low for example). Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just kee…

Do you think tough working conditions are leading Chinese tech workers to leave China in search of better work/life balance?

The most recent episode of the Motley Fool Money podcast featured an interview with David Kuo in which he said manufacturers are leaving China for other asian countries because wages in China are rising. Rising wages is typically correlated with falling unemployment, which forces employers to provide better working conditions. So I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Chinese tech workers moving to employers who treat them with more respect. That will be the end of 996.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#202

Post by alkonaut »

your-nanny wrote: post #156
alkonaut wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly that is why there are laws (in China I guess not). I can't work more than 200h overtime in a year or 48h in 4weeks (meaning that after four 52h weeks I can't do anymore overtime), regardless of whether I'm paid for it or not. So after two 996 weeks my manager would be in criminal territory if I don't get two very short weeks afterwards. In my experience, this seems to actually work too. Crunch time is replace…

where are you?

Sweden

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#203

Post by arkitaip »

rwallace wrote: post #48
human20190310 wrote: post #25

I'm beginning to suspect that the 996 schedule (and its equivalents in other cultures) aren't actually about productivity; they're about devotion. Devotion isn't something a CEO can explicitly ask for, but a 996 schedule is, so that becomes the expectation even if it actually has a neutral-to-negative impact on productivity. Richard Liu almost made this explicit when he stated that people who didn't adhere to it were…

Your conclusion is absolutely correct. The explanation is that Homo economicus, the economic optimizing agent, is a leaky abstraction on top of a killer ape. In the modern environment, it's easy to forget that our brains did not actually evolve to deal with money, let alone the high-tech infrastructure of a modern corporation. They evolved to dominate other apes on the African savanna. But evolution does not document…

"Homo economicus, the economic optimizing agent, is a leaky abstraction on top of a killer ape."

Amazing phrase.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#204

Post by acct1771 »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #140
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloomberg reporters get bonuses for writing stories that affect the market. Seriously.

I've heard this so many times and it just seems so ludicrous. How does one even prove that a specific article "affected the market". What degree need an article "affect the market" in order to qualify? How does one measure this? To whom does a reporter submit a "reimbursement for market effect" form? I mean I guess if I saw some proof of these claims I might change my mind, but at the moment it seems totally naive. e…

They don't care about the reason it moves the market.

They just know people will feel compelled to read their publications if they're consistently affecting the market.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#206

Post by balabaster »

rqs wrote: post #138
cjw3 wrote: post #18

It’s interesting to compare the Bloomberg article with this one from the South China Morning Post, titled “Alibaba founder Jack Ma says companies forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’”. Two articles reporting on the same statements and drawing completely different conclusions. It’s getting harder to find the truth. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3006127/alib...

It will be easier to understand if you've followed the movement. Most of those companies are not forcing their employees to work 996 on paper. But if you don't, then first, your team leader will give you some hint to ask you to stay longer. If you still don't, you will be fired for any number of reasons (KPI is too low for example). Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just kee…

> "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long... Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job."

First up, I'm not arguing against the fact that there are many many managers, bosses, directors and CEOs that use emotional manipulation to blackmail employees to do their bidding even though on paper they claim differently. They give it all sorts of names to make you believe this behaviour is okay. The most damaging use of emotive language makes you feel crazy for feeling the way you feel. This invalidation of your experience, of your feelings, is pulled straight out of the narcissist's playbook and it has a name - it's called gaslighting. Making you feel crazy and invalidating you for feeling the way you do. "If you loved this job, you'd do this for me. If you don't do this for me, you can't possibly love this job." Anyone who has escaped an emotionally abusive relationship will attest to how damaging this one technique is. It's often the tool of choice for a narcissist to maintain emotional control of their target.

It's tough to spot because usually the people at the top got there by being charismatic and motivational. They're charming and make you want to follow them... the same way they treat their partners to get them into a relationship before they invalidate them and make them feel crazy to keep control of them and keep them from leaving. The language they're using to make you follow them is manipulation and is also another tool lifted directly from the narcissist's playbook. Beware of the way people make you feel to get you to play along. When you start to feel like your feelings are crazy and that you feel guilty for not wanting to play along, chances are you're being manipulated using these tools.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every...

Secondly, the first part of the statement Ma made, given my own experience is, to an extent, true: "if you love your job, 12 hours is not very long."

I tend to agree that if you're occupied by something you love to do or are fascinated by, 12 hours doesn't seem very long. My experience has been that it tends to go by in the blink of an eye. This statement can stand alone without any implication. I frequently work for 12-18 hours straight without even realizing I've done it and then wonder how I didn't even notice it had got dark and I've missed dinner.

However, the opposing statement that if you don't work 12 hours, you don't love your job just isn't true in my experience. There are days, honestly, where I'm fairly apathetic towards work and I struggle to sit in front of my computer for even an hour. This doesn't mean I don't love my job. It just means I don't love what needs to be done right now.

Just because all cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#208

Post by CodeCube »

basetop wrote: post #195
cjw3 wrote: post #18

It’s interesting to compare the Bloomberg article with this one from the South China Morning Post, titled “Alibaba founder Jack Ma says companies forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’”. Two articles reporting on the same statements and drawing completely different conclusions. It’s getting harder to find the truth. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3006127/alib...

This is why I wish we had a topics based news aggregator. A site which lists topics and under each topic, you get a list of different headlines and sources ( hopefully from different countries and with different perspectives and ideologies ). That way, we can see what different media groups are saying about the same event. Google news and other social media used to do this until they got pressured to "localize" the n…

Sounds like a potential startup ... if you can do it right (how would you identity the "same event": algorithmically? Curated? Crowd-sourced (tags)?)

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#209

Post by acct1771 »

Kirth wrote: post #180
afarrell wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a sysadmin comes to work drunk, that would also be self-imposed. Would that be acceptable for the company? If not, why is it okay to come to work drunk-with-fatigue?

I always wonder about cases where a person's work depresses them as such that they start self-medicating (for example, with alcohol). Would that still be self-imposed, or a result of the circumstances?

We always have a choice.

It's just how easy the choice is that defines how good our conditions are.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#210

Post by alistairSH »

wavefunction wrote: post #186
alistairSH wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's his point - both pieces are factually correct, but give completely opposing interpretations of those facts. It's harder to recognize "fake news" when the "fake" part is heavy editorializing of an otherwise truthful set of news.

"News" has always been heavily editorialized from the start. "Fake news" is just propaganda presented as "news."

There used to be some news outlets that were mostly even-keeled with their interpretation of facts. That's decreasingly the case.
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