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Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

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Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#201

Post by anyfoo »

abhinai wrote: post #25

One point OP may have missed is learning opportunity. The opportunity to learn in a big company, any big company is simply not the same as that in a startup. You are always one of 50 people working on a feature that has already been spec'd out in great detail by some one else. Early in your career investing in learning and becoming a better engineer makes a lot of sense.

That is definitely not "always" the case, and in fact I highly doubt that "50 people working on the feature, spec'd by someone else entirely" is often true at all.

Even as an intern at Google many many years ago, I was one of just a handful of engineers working on a feature, and even though my internship lasted only a few months, I not only had a considerable part in the feature's implementation, I was also given plenty of opportunity to give my own input.

Now, many years later at a different large company, that has not changed. The total amount of people working on a significant feature may be large, but that's mostly when the feature is very cross-functional, and well, just generally large. Most teams we interact with still have the size of a handful of people, and they very much have the authority and responsibility over their components.

Obviously there are a lot of factors in play, and I don't at all doubt that jobs like you describe exist (though 50 people with no spec input still seems like a vast exaggeration to me), but I highly resist the claim that working in a big corp means that you're bound to be a small cog in engineering. Quite the opposite: It can be a large lever giving you the opportunity to work on things of amazing scale and effect, that a startup simply does not have the resources for.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#202

Post by lkrubner »

From 2002 to 2008 I was the technical co-founder of a startup, and I had amazing fun. I worked 70 hours a week for 6 years, mostly because we were having so much fun.

In 2015 I was the lead engineer at a small startup that had a self-destructive and abusive top leadership. The technology was very exciting but the context was not.

What I learned from the two experiences is that startups can be intense fun if you are one of the owners, but if you are not an owner, startups can be absolutely miserable. More details are available in the book that I wrote:

https://www.amazon.com/Destroy-Tech-Startup-Easy-Steps/dp/09...

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#203

Post by sk5t »

kenneth wrote: post #112
everdev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had what would be considered a good payout. When looking over the course of my career, however, it simply made up for the reduced salary I took for the years I worked there. This is such an important point for people to know when they're joining startups. You're basically investing in the startup. If you're going to be an investor it's good to know what your alternative investments are. If you put $50k in the sto…

An exit would usually be considered long-term capital gains under the tax code, which luckily tops out at 20% (+ state income tax)

If you exit by cashless exercise of options, it's (usually) then blasted by the full effect of wage/income tax.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#204

Post by aggronn »

bvm wrote: post #71
aggronn wrote: post #14

This is knitpicky, because OP's point may still stand, but as a founder, this is what comes to mind after reading this: When I hear "work for a startup", I don't assume that means "be the 10th engineer at a company". You might make some money at that point, but you're not going to get financial independence unless there's a billion dollar IPO. By BigCo standards, 10 engineers is a tiny startup. By venture/founder sta…

> knitpicky this one writes itself

Whooops, thanks!

*nitpicky

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#205

Post by kolbe »

askafriend wrote: post #164
kolbe wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Lyft founders are entering the IPO with about 3.5% each, then I don't think it's crazy for 10th engineers these days to have less than a basis point.

That doesn't tell the whole story. There's a dual class share structure and even with the 7.5%, they retain majority control of the company.

When you're talking about valuing their shares, yes, it does tell the whole story. They cannot transfer their extra voting rights, so if they're ever interested in monetizing their investment, they have to convert to limited voting shares to sell. And all we're talking about here is the monetary payout of working at a startup.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#206

Post by bob1029 »

birken wrote: post #53

One thing that gets glossed over a lot with startups is that often times the technical skill level is really low. If you are a young engineer and you are hoping to learn technical skills, be very very careful about which startup you join because you might end up at one where nobody actually has any idea what they are doing. And if you yourself are in the learning phase of your career, you might not have the experienc…

I absolutely second this perspective. I started out working at a very large semiconductor company and put in my time there for about 3 years before testing the waters at ever-smaller shops. We even called it the 'systems engineering bootcamp'.

I feel the major advantages of working in a large corporate environment are that you will develop an inclination towards professionalism (e.g. how to write excellent emails and communicate with others) as well as a solid foundation in traditional tools and practices (e.g. SQL, manual release planning & execution, coordination of large-scale efforts, etc). By having these 'traditional' perspectives, I feel you can much more accurately and definitively identify & mitigate hazardous work efforts, as well as see certain types of risks in new technologies that others might not be aware of.

I strongly feel that if I had started in a much smaller company and stayed there for too long, I would be much worse off than I am today. The big companies sound un-cool (and they may be in some cases), but they almost seem essential for rounding-out your perspective as a developer/engineer/manager/etc.

Also, I occasionally miss the feeling of being part of a huge team, so I am entirely open to the idea of returning to a large corporation at some point in the future.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#207

Post by askafriend »

kolbe wrote: post #205
askafriend wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't tell the whole story. There's a dual class share structure and even with the 7.5%, they retain majority control of the company.

When you're talking about valuing their shares, yes, it does tell the whole story. They cannot transfer their extra voting rights, so if they're ever interested in monetizing their investment, they have to convert to limited voting shares to sell. And all we're talking about here is the monetary payout of working at a startup.

> And all we're talking about here is the monetary payout of working at a startup

Fair, I concede my point based on this premise.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#208

Post by jki275 »

refurb wrote: post #188
jki275 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors make significantly more than that. Double that at minimum for a successful doctor.

Physician income varies widely based on specialty. Family medicine can be paying in the $200K's while a skilled surgeon with their own practice can be $1M+.

Certainly a fair point.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#209

Post by paganel »

everdev wrote: post #79
acconrad wrote: post #21

As someone who was a 1st engineer of a startup that successfully exited I had what would be considered a good payout. When looking over the course of my career, however, it simply made up for the reduced salary I took for the years I worked there. It was a net-neutral outcome to be the 1st engineer at a startup that actually exited for a substantial (8-figure deal) outcome which already puts me in the minority. So no…

> I had what would be considered a good payout. When looking over the course of my career, however, it simply made up for the reduced salary I took for the years I worked there. This is such an important point for people to know when they're joining startups. You're basically investing in the startup. If you're going to be an investor it's good to know what your alternative investments are. If you put $50k in the sto…

> But if the upside of investing in a startup won't reasonably beat the market then you're essentially taking a pay cut.

Like the OP said, if you look at it only from a financial point of view then joining a start-up is probably a worst financial decision compared to joining an established company.

The OP mentioned that going the start-up way has provided him/her with unique skills that then were of great help in his/her career. I can chime in with my own anecdote and say that joining a start-up/small-ish company has provided me with a greater will to do the actual work, a greater sense of purpose compared to me potentially having chosen to work for en established/bigger company.

I'm in this job (I'm a programmer) for the long run, I genuinely think that had I chosen to work at a big company my mental health would have been in shambles because I would have felt as an insignificant cog in the corporate machine no matter the compensation.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#210

Post by golemiprague »

acconrad wrote: post #21

As someone who was a 1st engineer of a startup that successfully exited I had what would be considered a good payout. When looking over the course of my career, however, it simply made up for the reduced salary I took for the years I worked there. It was a net-neutral outcome to be the 1st engineer at a startup that actually exited for a substantial (8-figure deal) outcome which already puts me in the minority. So no…

You got to add also the networking effect, when you work for a startup you tend to meet more people from other companies whether other startups or higher up people in regular companies that interact with your startup. That helped me a lot during my career.

I have worked in all kind of environments and still prefer the startup environment even as an employee but usually I try to get there early enough to have some substantial shares. The only difference is that when I was young I couldn't care less about hours and now I pick startups where the culture is not so crazy in terms of working hours. It is just much more fun and flexible than a big company and I am willing to take the salary cut for the lifestyle. I spend much more my time with my kids than most people I know who are working for big corporates.

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