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ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

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Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bans will, for the most part, be useless, as most gun bans based on features usually are. To see why, look up e.g. "MARS action rifle", or "lever release AR-15". At the same time, countries that don't bother with stuff like that, but instead regulate who can own firearms much more stringently than US does - e.g. Czech Republic - are doing fine.

This ban while strict is actually more than the cosmetic 'assault rifle ban' given the strict magazine size limits for all but essentially 'varmint gun' calibers. One can debate the effectiveness of it but the features of some actual substance in this case.

It's more substance than usual for sure. My point was that it's still not going to prevent the next terrorist from doing more or less the same thing. The only way to make this kind of regulation sensible is to stop chasing implementation details, and have some standard testing protocol for actual performance (e.g. rate of fire), then set limits on that.

Magazine capacity limits are relevant in principle, but the problem is enforcement - they're just too simple to effectively regulate. Even defining what a limit is can be hard, given that it's a box with a spring, so the limit inherently depends on what cartridges can fit and feed. As Canada has found out, this means that a 5-round magazine can be a 15-round magazine sometimes. But even when you have a clear definition that accounts for all such shenanigans, good luck enforcing it when one can make high-cap mag bodies by cutting legal ones, and duck taping them together. Again, it's a metal box with a spring, not even curved in many calibers; most complicated parts are the follower and the feed lips, and those are the same regardless of capacity.

I'd still look at their definitions first, though, because in most countries (and US states) that limit magazine capacity, a full-sized magazine that is blocked internally by some kind of pin is perfectly legal, and yet that pin takes about 50 seconds to remove without breaking the magazine. There's a lot more security theater about gun laws in most places than people realize.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Constitution is the longest standing implemented constitutional document in the world. Clearly they have done something right. The American Constitution isn't optimized for perfect social harmony. Its designed to work and stand the test of time. The New Zealand constitution is only 33 years old - which is peanuts. If it doesn't stand the test of time then your opinion really doesn't hold water does it?

The American Constitution is the longest standing implemented constitutional document in the world. Clearly they have done something right. The American Constitution isn't optimized for perfect social harmony. Its designed to work and stand the test of time. The New Zealand constitution is only 33 years old - which is peanuts. If it doesn't stand the test of time then your opinion really doesn't hold water does it? B…

Say more. You haven't made a point. The American Constitution was ratified June 21, 1788. Thats 231 years ago.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that last paragraph is something I've naively never given much thought and you're right. The rise of facist groups has really made me realize how disproportionate 'free speech' can be. The first example that comes to mind is police presence at protests against them. If 100 of them show up and 1000 counter protestors show up then the onus is on the police to protect their protest. The minorities targeted by these hate…

The manifesto includes direct calls to violence. So promoting and spreading the manifesto in that way should be a crime. However, reading and sharing the material for informing ones self should be seen as right that one has - especially since it is being used as justification to take rights and freedoms away.

Any radical voice that made the news, in any light, has gotten a larger following. Every single time a moderate brings a radical to debate it is a net gain for the radical.

You can measure this by simply plotting the number of various social media followings such voices have, and plotting them against time and marking notable appearances.

If someone is so radical they reject all authority, whether it's political or scientific or religious, and they can justify any conspiracy that fits their world view, then they have constructed an immunity to information.

Whatever evidence you give, no matter how hot your take is, no matter what your message or framing is, hosting such voices on your platform becomes an enabler.

I'm not for expanded censorship of ideology or debate. I'm for better prosecution of incitement of violence. This should also include spreading of false information designed to create a false sense of distress and push people to violence.

Whether you think this applies to the alt-right, ISIS, or antifa doesn't matter. What's important is combating the rampant incitement of violence that social media is enabling.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#204
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bans will, for the most part, be useless, as most gun bans based on features usually are. To see why, look up e.g. "MARS action rifle", or "lever release AR-15". At the same time, countries that don't bother with stuff like that, but instead regulate who can own firearms much more stringently than US does - e.g. Czech Republic - are doing fine.

> At the same time, countries that don't bother with stuff like that, but instead regulate who can own firearms much more stringently than US does - e.g. Czech Republic - are doing fine. I think you'd have said the same thing about New Zealand a week and a half ago, yet here we are.

And are they any better now? If you looked up the things I mentioned in my earlier comment, you know that UK has firearms available to civilians that aren't particularly less lethal than what the Christchurch terrorist used. They haven't been used in a similar way yet for the same reason why New Zealand didn't have any problems for over 20 years before this - because these events are so rare in general.

OTOH, looking at New Zealand's eligibility laws, one thing that stands out to me is the lack of a mandatory mental health exam. So it's like US in that regard - only already-diagnosed mental health issues can block ownership.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#205
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they haven't actually done anything to try to restrict the shooting video, at least on foreign websites (it may be illegal under existing NZ law?) It suppose it wouldn't actually be hard for them to seize the copyright (perhaps with a new law if required) and start issuing DMCA takedowns or threats of lawsuits.

Common misconception that this is directed by the government, like Mubarak ordering the internet cut off or something. The Office of Film and Literature classification reviews and classified media material in NZ, similar to how the MPAA does for films in the USA. It can also classify materials as “objectionable” at which point they become illegal to possess or trade (except by certain request, eg if you’re an academi…

In fact, such material is already illegal to possess or trade. The official classification just clarifies that after the fact.

The law that makes this material objectionable is the same one that makes child pornography illegal, and it should be obvious that it wouldn't work very well if each video involving sex with children had to be classified as objectionable before it became illegal.

The criteria are here:

https://www.dia.govt.nz/Censorship-Objectionable-and-Restric...

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#206
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are unable to comprehend it in the same way that the civilised world cannot comprehend enslaving another. Just as enslaving others is wrong, limiting free speech is wrong, and inherently contradictory. Limited speech is not free. It is time for the rest of the world to understand this, and the US could use a refresher as well.

> limiting free speech is wrong Enabling the spread of terrorist propaganda, like the blocked websites have been doing by hosting the Christchurch shooting video. You'd better believe if websites like Twitter and Youtube didn't self-censor ISIS propaganda like they did in 2014, many countries would be having their ISPs block those sites.

How do we know its terrorist propaganda if its illegal to view it? Motive for reading/sharing obviously needs to be a factor.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#207
post #136
post #109

The problem with censoring and banning the information outright (in the case of NZ) is that it gives power to the manifesto. So much of what Jacinda Ardern said after the shooting was about denying the person a platform: "We, in New Zealand, will give him nothing. Not even his name." "He sought many things from his act of terror, but one was notoriety, and that is why you will never hear me mention his name." And yet…

No they haven't. What they're doing is preventing the spread of radicalization to vulnerable demographics. They're breaking up the ability of alt-right groups to try and rally around it. You don't get to shoot a bunch of people and have your manifesto spread far and wide. You get forgotten. And your manifesto gets banned. Because who cares what you had to say - it's irrelevant. As to the video: go extract release for…

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Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#208
post #109

The problem with censoring and banning the information outright (in the case of NZ) is that it gives power to the manifesto. So much of what Jacinda Ardern said after the shooting was about denying the person a platform: "We, in New Zealand, will give him nothing. Not even his name." "He sought many things from his act of terror, but one was notoriety, and that is why you will never hear me mention his name." And yet…

it actually seems pretty effective. i don't know his name. i'm sure i've come across it once or twice in reports on the event, but not enough times for it to actually stick.

Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#209
post #179
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they haven't. What they're doing is preventing the spread of radicalization to vulnerable demographics. They're breaking up the ability of alt-right groups to try and rally around it. You don't get to shoot a bunch of people and have your manifesto spread far and wide. You get forgotten. And your manifesto gets banned. Because who cares what you had to say - it's irrelevant. As to the video: go extract release for…

> You get forgotten That's the thing though - as long as something is banned, it doesn't stay forgotten. We see Tiananmen Square pop up all the time not because of its major historical significance, but because of the attempts by certain governments to censor it. There are better ways to forget something collectively as a culture. Right now if you google "New Zealand shooting", half of the articles are about the bann…

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Re: ISPs in AU and NZ start censoring the internet without legal precedent

#210

All the sites in the article were hosting illegal (in NZ) content - they were temporarily blocked till the video (of a terrorist killing innocent people) was taken down. Nobody needs to see that. It's not about free speech. The sites in question are used to spread hate, racism, violence and bigotry. Why are we tolerating this kind of media in our lives? Why are we letting people upload this? It is not free speech. It…

The more that people understand about what leads to these kinds of attacks the better. But we aren't going to get much depth of truth from the kinds of sanitized messaging coming from corporate media.

The manifesto is a window into the mind of the killer. It's a distasteful document, but a strong culture that trusts its people would encourage citizens to read it and understand the danger.

As it stands, authorities really don't trust people and instead prefer to nanny them by deflecting from any issues that lurk below the surface for fear of empowering another lone attacker.

This is a poor strategy because it will surely backfire. Instead, frank discussion is most conducive to lasting peace. But after seeing the response of the NZ government I hold little hope of that happening.

I think the American legal stance on this is right - it is not up to governments or people like you to decide what media other people consume, just because you fear they might be negatively influenced.

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