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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#201

Post by blattimwind »

ilovecaching wrote: post #182
meddlepal wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OO in general is not fine. I smell a zealot or a troll.

Please elaborate on how OO is fine. OO hides state, which makes reasoning about cache, and therefore performance very difficult, which is why most game programers take a data oriented approach. It hides state but gains none of the advantages of Erlang because all of the implementations forgot to make state only mutable through explicit message passing. Inheritance isn’t an abstraction because you inherit both code an…

These are actually all fairly common problems so I'm not sure why this is drowned out in gray...

Re: Java 12

#202

Post by nileshk »

vbezhenar wrote: post #59
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

So far I did not find anything comparable to replace Java for website server language. Go is a terrible extremely verbose language without vital features. JavaScript on Node is limited by single-thread and JavaScript itself is a terrible language (along with other dynamic languages like PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby). Rust is awesome, but I don't think that it'll be ever usable for mediocre developers, therefore it can't b…

Assuming you meant specifically the Java language, Kotlin for JVM may also be a good option. Solid set of language features that puts it at least on par with C#, and allows you to write more DRY code than you can with Java language. As with any JVM language, you get all the benefits of the JVM. IDE support is great (at least with IntelliJ IDEA). It's an officially supported Android development language, putting it further into the mainstream. Also, as with other non-Java JVM languages, releases are not tied to JVM releases (I still use Java 8 for my Kotlin projects, while using the latest Kotlin version).

For browser or Node.js, TypeScript is the way to go IMHO. Node.js and it's ecosystem have it's issues, but TypeScript is quite nice and a considerable improvement over JavaScript, while being close enough to JS where it fits nicely into the ecosystem. Only downside is that it adds a compile step that can potentially grow to be time-consuming.

Re: Java 12

#203

Post by gerbilly »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

This seems a bit uncharitable.

I still use Java a lot for application servers[1] and enjoy it.

I've also used Go, but I wouldn't want to try and implement, say a non trivial REST server with it.

I don't have the time to code everything from scratch, or to use an immature Go library or framework for example, when there are perfectly good ones in the Java world.[2]

Perhaps it might be best to just see languages as tools, and that each language has a purpose.

Java is old, so what? Lots of people derive value from it, and it's very stable.

You might be glad that banks use it, instead of immediately jumping on whatever languages you mentioned above. At least it manages to do boring things like keep you accounts relatively safe from hackers.

[1] https://www.dropwizard.io/1.3.9/docs/

[2] And yes, for that kind of application, unchecked exceptions are way more convenient than thousands of lines of if err != nil all over the place. And annotations in Go are an afterthought and it shows.

Re: Java 12

#204

Post by spricket »

ilovecaching wrote: post #182
meddlepal wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OO in general is not fine. I smell a zealot or a troll.

Please elaborate on how OO is fine. OO hides state, which makes reasoning about cache, and therefore performance very difficult, which is why most game programers take a data oriented approach. It hides state but gains none of the advantages of Erlang because all of the implementations forgot to make state only mutable through explicit message passing. Inheritance isn’t an abstraction because you inherit both code an…

I actually agree with you here that OO is overused. Java has added quite a bit of FP in recent years though.

Lombok makes immutable data classes trivial. Improved interface support for default methods make it possible to largely ignore OO if you don't want it.

FP is mostly a community effort at this point, but solid. Java Streams are decent for basic stuff like map/filter but RXJava is extremely powerful if you want the complexity it comes with. Vavr is nice for adding more FP types too

Re: Java 12

#205

Post by Scarbutt »

ilovecaching wrote: post #182
meddlepal wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OO in general is not fine. I smell a zealot or a troll.

Please elaborate on how OO is fine. OO hides state, which makes reasoning about cache, and therefore performance very difficult, which is why most game programers take a data oriented approach. It hides state but gains none of the advantages of Erlang because all of the implementations forgot to make state only mutable through explicit message passing. Inheritance isn’t an abstraction because you inherit both code an…

True, class inheritance is so hard to get right that is just better to avoid it. Lots of coupling and spaghetti code because of this, but to be fair, you also see this on other languages, like python, php and even JS.

Re: Java 12

#206

Post by spricket »

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #175
_bxg1 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I do wonder how Unity deals with the GC. Maybe there's an algorithm like this one, maybe the engine's core systems (physics and graphics) are written in native code. C# as a language does tend to be nicer than Java, but its VM doesn't have as rich a family of languages.

My limited understanding is that high end Unity devs code their stuff not to make garbage. Unity has a very nice system for profiling that sort of thing. Also, CLR has F#, which I like much better than Scala (and, no type erasure in CLR), Clojure which is ... just like Clojure on JVM, and C#, which as a Java dev since 1.1 I have come to prefer as a language even as I remain JVM ecosystem preferring on the server side…

Totally agree. C# and kin are far better designed. It's the lively Java ecosystem that keeps me around as well

Re: Java 12

#207

Post by wpdev_63 »

ilovecaching wrote: post #57
wpdev_63 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely alot of 'enterprisey' java code out there but that has more to do with the way people code than the language is now. Functional programming(.sort, .map etc) introduced in Java 8 allows more concise code and less boilerplate. Even with Rust, Go, and .Net core out there it's really hard to beat Java's battletested libraries/frameworks and excellent tooling. Java is still very relevent today and will…

Battle tested and tooling really aren't compelling arguments anymore, Java is very middle of the pack in both regards. Go is running as the basis of the next generation infrastructure in Kubernetes, Prometheus, Docker, Terraform... Elixir has revived Erlang, which now has great tooling in mix and is well known for being highly reliable. Go, Javascript, and Rust all have real package managers (even Go with mod) that a…

If you're really that much of a language snob then you should checkout kotlin. It has seamless integration with Java and has the _best_ ergonomics I've encountered language wise.

Go can't even get it's packaging story straight and once again doesn't have generics which makes 'functional' programming a no Go;)

Re: Java 12

#208

Post by spricket »

ResidentSleeper wrote: post #166
spricket wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already happened in a way. Unity uses a ton of C# for scripting. While C# is somewhat nicer to work with, this low pause GC makes java a compelling option for moving much more logic into the VM language

Keep in mind that C# has support for non-primitive value types (structs) which means you can avoid garbage collection entirely if you're careful (not all that difficult in my experience). Additionally, Unity has just introduced a specialized low-latency garbage collector in their beta build. Overall, from where I'm standing, Java doesn't look very appealing for game development.

Lack of value types sucks so yes I agree. On the other hand this new GC might be fast enough that it just doesn't matter if you create garbage for most purposes

Re: Java 12

#209

Post by Cyph0n »

blattimwind wrote: post #201
ilovecaching wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate on how OO is fine. OO hides state, which makes reasoning about cache, and therefore performance very difficult, which is why most game programers take a data oriented approach. It hides state but gains none of the advantages of Erlang because all of the implementations forgot to make state only mutable through explicit message passing. Inheritance isn’t an abstraction because you inherit both code an…

These are actually all fairly common problems so I'm not sure why this is drowned out in gray...

The over-zealous tone may annoy some people. Also, he/she could have gotten the same point across more effectively without implying that Erlang and FP magically solve all problems.

Re: Java 12

#210

Post by pmoriarty »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

There are a huge number of Java programmers who know very little if anything outside of it, who've geared their entire careers towards learning the Java ecosystem and don't want to learn anything else.

There are also thousands of companies which are focused on Java, Java, and more Java. Many schools are also geared towards churning out more Java engineers, and people who don't yet know Java want to learn it because there are still so many Java jobs around.

That's a lot of inertia to overcome.

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