Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#201

Post by allannienhuis » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

foobiekr wrote: post #196

kennyadam wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should edit that to 'These are people who don't care. It's not good.'

Both comments express this sentiment. I’m pretty judgey myself, but I’ve known these people for ten, twenty years. They are good people but even good people have blind spots.

We love labels don't we? No one is purely good or purely bad. Or purely left or purely right, etc.

Like most things, these things are points along a spectrum, not absolutes. Even that is probably too simplistic - points in n dimensional space I guess :)

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#202

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #77

nelsonic wrote: post #61

Fb is only "shutting down" it's iOS Spyware due to "bad press" not due to a sudden realisation that spying on children who are incapable of understanding the long-term consequences of the privacy invasion is fundamentally wrong/evil. Fb only stop doing things that are obviously morally reprehensible when they get caught or called out in the media. They never proactively doing the right thing. :-(

I would love to be a fly-on-the-wall at some of their meetings when someone says “So we are going to do data collection on minors without parental consent now” and all the developers just say “great I’ll code that up straight away”. Like is there no dissent at all? Is there no one at all who says “guys this is not OK”?

Turns out a lot of people are willing to be unethical for a lot of money. If you can convince people to murder people and render them down to soap you can probably convince people to build spyware. You can even pretend that such data will never be used in a prejudicial fashion say to deny people employment in the future based on some social score.

Come on guys we just want to build a better ad what could possibly go wrong!

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#203

Post by radium3d » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

radium3d wrote: post #151

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still available on Android.

What is it called? I don't see it on the play store. I think I found it? Was it called onavo on Android? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onavo.spac...

Scary notes for Facebook's Onavo app, and it seems you don't even get paid for it on android?

We collect information such as:

* The apps installed on your phone

* Time you spend using apps

* Mobile and Wi-Fi data you use per app

* The websites you visit

* Your country, device and network type

We use this data to:

* Improve and operate the app

* Analyze apps usage

* Help improve Facebook Products

* Build better experiences for our community

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#204

Post by RobLach » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #67

RobLach wrote: post #45

If I tried something like this I’d have my developer account totally revoked and all my apps pulled; but I can’t imagine that happening to Facebook. It makes sense but it’s interesting that there’s a systemic de-risking of the way big players operate while simultaneously being in a position to do the most damage.

From a certain size on they need each other. Apple can’t afford to lose Facebook and Facebook can’t afford to lose apple.

You'd be surprised.

Apple has $245 billion cash on hand. That's enough to build their own feature equivalent social network and give $20 to anyone who signs up.

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#205

Post by johnnyfaehell » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

cmsj wrote: post #186

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What harm came from that exactly? More people voted? Is voting harm? Just because you don't like the way someone voted doesn't make it harmful. My understanding is the entire Cambridge Analytica thing is about privacy and not actual harm from the Facebook aspect.

It was about having enough data to specifically target people with messages that would influence their vote. At scale, such behaviour cannot possibly be good for democracy.

For me, everything is about, that it could be harmful. And that's true it could be. Lots of things could be harmful. But right now, it's not really provable by anyone that it is. What we need is proper laws to control what companies can do. And in some areas of the world we're getting them. They're not great but like all tbings they will improve.

But it seems very much like there is an attitude like working for Facebook or Google is amoral. That I don't believe. Especially when there are companies sell software to track phones secretly to countries like Iran. That's on the border of amoral.

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#206

Post by chillacy » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

RobLach wrote: post #204

maxxxxx wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a certain size on they need each other. Apple can’t afford to lose Facebook and Facebook can’t afford to lose apple.

You'd be surprised. Apple has $245 billion cash on hand. That's enough to build their own feature equivalent social network and give $20 to anyone who signs up.

Hope it works better than Ping and google plus

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#207

Post by chillacy » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #191

meitham wrote: post #95

I struggle to see how software developers can willingly do work on a project that goes against all values and morales! I have previously worked with developers in start-ups and was amazed to hear some of their backgrounds. One previously worked for a company that bundles spyware with freeware MSI products. Another worked for an airline agency, where they advertise fake a discount on tickets when the price was in fact…

There was a YC funded company a few years ago that had a similar startup bundling shitware, and pg himself was on here defending them and claiming that users are “choosing” to install the software willingly. It’s astonishing how much one’s decision making framework is tied to their financial incentives. People find a way to rationalize anything if they’re getting paid, and they don’t even realize that they’re doing i…

One of the interesting ideas out there is the evolutionary development of morality, basically it exists to serve our survival, and historically has changed in the right ways to compliment the technology of the time (and the tribes which fail to update their morals die out). So that might just be a feature, not a bug.

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#208

Post by chillacy » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

jamiek88 wrote: post #166

sidcool wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to realize why we expect Software engineers to be bellwethers of morality and ethics. They are flesh and blood, and like any other profession, if there's money in something, there will be someone to do it

We expect all engineers to care and most people, who call themselves engineers take a course of ethics as part of their certification. It’s an ongoing source of debate and confusion as to what Software ‘Engineer’ means.

Engineers do (like civil, mechanical, electrical) but most software engineers come from a CS background, where there isn’t as much focus on professional ethics.

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#209

Post by chillacy » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

fqw3b58w4n6 wrote: post #106

sidcool wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to realize why we expect Software engineers to be bellwethers of morality and ethics. They are flesh and blood, and like any other profession, if there's money in something, there will be someone to do it

We should expect everybody to care about the morality and ethics of their actions. That's a pretty low fucking bar IMO. In software, this is one way that manifests.

Other professions are self regulating, if you do unethical things your peers (the AMA or legal boards) will strip you of your license to practice and then you can’t find a job.

It would be too much to expect engineers to somehow be angels without the threat of punishment when even doctors need these systems.

But on the other hand, imagine if you heard about this agile thing but you can’t legally apply it because waterfall is mandated and if you apply agile you might be stripped of your license to practice software engineering.

Re: Facebook will shut down its controversial market research app for iOS

#210

Post by chillacy » Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #158

treis wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Google, MS, Instacart, Uber et al? The reality is that every major tech company does scummy stuff. There are vanishly few tech companies that don't.

There are a fuckload of tech companies. You don't have to work for a big name.

Glad you’re a moral bastion but I gotta pay the bills and big companies have better work life balance than unicorn startups.