Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours • Hacker News Board

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#201

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:36 AM UTC

throw2016 wrote: post #188

unionemployee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately don’t have time for a long post at the moment, but as an airline pilot and instructor/check pilot, I can say that extreme incompetence exists in the airline world, especially in Africa, India, SE Asia. There could be some very good reasons that they chose to continue, and often I learn those reasons when the facts are released, discovering that a good decision was made. I’ll be following the investigati…

The accidents rates by country paints a completely different picture. [1] This wikipedia list of glaring pilot incompetence leading to fatalities doesn't seem to show any bias for specific regions. [2] When using anecdotal data one just can't make sweeping judgements and conclusions data does not support, that takes discussion into the region of prejudice and bigotry. This anecdotal one person usually 'an insider' fi…

I don’t think your links show that.

That first link tells you little without knowing the denominator for each country. How many flights did they have over that period of time?

And it covers more than 70 years, which is way too long to tell us whether a country or region has a bad safety record today...maybe America had 99% of its crashes in 1945, whereas the other countries on the list had all of theirs last year.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#202

Post by lbriner » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:38 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #34

cycrutchfield wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the linked Twitter thread. It was a brick wall. https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050581391828836352

Well a single layer, unreinforced brick wall isn't really that strong, especially near the top edge. It's perhaps plausible they didn't feel anything or at least nothing very alarming. I mean, the gear presumably still retracted properly and deployed later for landing, so it wasn't damaged too badly.

I don't know about you but I hear plenty of clunks and wirring on planes during take off and landing, sometimes uncomfortably loud and even though I know a bit about planes, I don't know if it's normal or not. (I'm alive so I assume it is normal!)

One takeoff I was on, the plane was vibrating like crazy, like I've never heard before but after a few minutes, it stopped and nothing happened!

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#203

Post by throw2016 » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

azernik wrote: post #195

throw2016 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accidents rates by country paints a completely different picture. [1] This wikipedia list of glaring pilot incompetence leading to fatalities doesn't seem to show any bias for specific regions. [2] When using anecdotal data one just can't make sweeping judgements and conclusions data does not support, that takes discussion into the region of prejudice and bigotry. This anecdotal one person usually 'an insider' fi…

That first link is pretty inapplicable - the numbers it shows are total fatalities and total accidents since 1945, not scaled for population of the country, not scaled for the quantity of air travel (in a time range where, especially early on where air travel was least safe, there were vast regional differences in wealth and frequency of flying), and over a long enough period that it doesn't really reflect the curren…

This is the IATA data for hull loss rates for 2017 per million departures from your link:

Asia Pacific - 0.18

CIS - 0.92

Europe - 0.13

Latin America and the Caribbean - 0.41

Middle East and North Africa - 0.00

North America - 0.00

And it ends there. No mention of any problems or concern for 'safety limits' for any region. Infact the IATA data is overall happy with the rates across regions. If you can find anything on that page that points out a problem for a specific region please link to it.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#204

Post by ksec » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:55 AM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #122

ksec wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

--I can say that extreme incompetence exists in the airline world, especially in Africa, India, SE Asia including Hong Kong?

Hong Kong is East Asia.

I stand corrected.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#205

Post by madamelic » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:58 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #42

burfog wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good reason would be fuel weight on possibly damaged landing gear. Also, the airport wasn't good anymore. They had just destroyed the Instrument Landing System at the end of the runway. Nobody should land there.

A lot of pilots don't use ILS and use a visual approach. That was one of the issues with the SF airport, as the left runway was closed, the lights were off and the pilot lined up with the taxi way.

> A lot of pilots don't use ILS and use a visual approach.

I feel like if you are so visually impaired, you can't see an object you are facing, you really should't land visually.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#206

Post by unionemployee » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

codeisawesome wrote: post #88

unionemployee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately don’t have time for a long post at the moment, but as an airline pilot and instructor/check pilot, I can say that extreme incompetence exists in the airline world, especially in Africa, India, SE Asia. There could be some very good reasons that they chose to continue, and often I learn those reasons when the facts are released, discovering that a good decision was made. I’ll be following the investigati…

My, what a broad brush you have. With of course no ‘time’ to back it up with facts.

Or I was going to sleep and didn’t want to stay up to write a report on my phone. Use your data but consider my anecdotal comment above. The aviation world is more opaque than one might think, and the governing bodies in certain areas are extremely protective of what is a great source of pride for their countries. I’ve worked with many people from these regions, talked with many people who work with people from these regions, and know many people who have worked in these regions, in addition to the exposure that comes from simply being in this industry. The system is designed to protect you and does its job, even when certain operators aren’t up to par, including the pilots.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#207

Post by jpindar » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 12:17 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #152

I hate articles introducing three-letter-mysteries and leaving the readers in confusion. To add insult to injury, none of the comments seem to acknowledge that the topic is impentrable. What is the mysterious ILS that was hit? Even after reading the Wikipedia article, I only have a vague idea - seems to be a radar system, both on ground and in the air. Did the plane hit a radar tower?

That's an aviation website. Would you expect HN posts to explain all computer related terms?

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#208

Post by MertsA » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 12:27 PM UTC

extrapickles wrote: post #187

FabHK wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to 36000 feet was taking a massive risk. I don’t think we have enough information yet to establish whether excessive weight was a factor.

On the other hand being higher buys you more time to correct for problems when they occur.

Not really. If there was a decompression the very first thing that the pilot would do is immediately descend to 10,000 feet. The aircraft is one giant pressure vessel with wings strapped to the sides. Taking that up into thin atmosphere when it might be compromised is a bad idea.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#209

Post by azernik » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

throw2016 wrote: post #203

azernik wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That first link is pretty inapplicable - the numbers it shows are total fatalities and total accidents since 1945, not scaled for population of the country, not scaled for the quantity of air travel (in a time range where, especially early on where air travel was least safe, there were vast regional differences in wealth and frequency of flying), and over a long enough period that it doesn't really reflect the curren…

This is the IATA data for hull loss rates for 2017 per million departures from your link: Asia Pacific - 0.18 CIS - 0.92 Europe - 0.13 Latin America and the Caribbean - 0.41 Middle East and North Africa - 0.00 North America - 0.00 And it ends there. No mention of any problems or concern for 'safety limits' for any region. Infact the IATA data is overall happy with the rates across regions. If you can find anything…

From same link: "2017 was a very good year for aviation safety."

The link includes a comparison with the previous year (2016) - onboard fatalities were ~90% lower and jet hull losses were ~75% lower. You're cherry-picking a very atypical year.

Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours

#210

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

oe wrote: post #130

nitinreddy88 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What caused them to retun in half way? Report says Trichy airport informed pilot about posssible damage to plane. Pilot ignored it saying everything is green. What happened in 4hrs to divert back to Mumbai is still mystery. Will be interesting to see full report

Is it possible that Dubai refused to let them land with a flyable but potentially pretty broken plane?

It is much more likely that Air India dispatch wanted the airplane repaired at a base where they have maintenance.

I also suspect it was better for the crew to end their last airline flight as crew in their home country...

A few years ago, was on a Delta flight out of Detroit to Boston. Over halfway to Boston, we turned back as the airplane had a maintenance issue that Delta wanted to deal with at DTW rather than BOS. (They do have a permanent presence at BOS, but a larger one at DTW.)