Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite' • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#201

Post by notacoward » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

gambler wrote: post #163

notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>The creeps should consider themselves on notice, whether there's a CoC or not. Yep, no politics here. No us-vs-them tribalism. No power plays. No jeering and celebrating a "victory" over "the other side". Just improving the community and making it more welcoming to everyone, that's what it's all about.

Why do you assume "the creeps" refers to all opponents and not just specific individuals? That you would take it personally says more about where you're coming from than about anything else.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#202

Post by jacobmoe » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #122

No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.

> No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them.

That's ridiculous. Every one of us changes our behavior because of someone else's opinions of us. It's the central mechanism for how humanity has been cooperating since the very beginning. Anyone who claims to not care about others opinions of them is likely trying to be liked by the kind of person who thinks it's cool to not care about others opinions. Every word you say is a virtue signal - you want others to think you're smart, to think you're good, to think you're the kind of person they should coorperate with. The only time you're not virtue signaling is when you're listening.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#203

Post by beaconstudios » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #180

beaconstudios wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rul…

It is important to note that this isn't merely a matter of opinion. One can study the effect/presence of unconscious bias objectively and quantitatively. These studies have large error bars but they use conventional and accepted statistics. To the extent it is politicized, it's politicized the way evolution and climate change are: groups who are politically opposed have opinions about the consequences of these studie…

note that I didn't suggest that the classical liberal side deny the existence of subconscious bias. Just the scale of the impact of said bias, and what can realistically be done about it (or, perhaps, the cost of attempting to correct it). There are probably people who deny the existence of bias and you're right in that they don't express a reasonable opinion.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#204

Post by zakm » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

l8again wrote: post #46

Here we go normalizing verbal abuses to just "not being polite enough". This culture is now so pervasive in our industry that people are wearing their rudeness to their fellow coworkers as a badge of honor. I have seen incredibly meek guys on the outside turn into monsters as soon as they get into their roles of lead devs or tech leads. Repeat after me - "Kindness is cool."

I'm sure what you're talking about happens (although I personally haven't seen it). What also happens is that cultural differences lead to two people having different perceptions of the same event. One views it as "honest and blunt" and the other views it as "rude." I think a lot of the pushback comes from people who have personally delivered things they view as "honest and blunt" and have had others say that they are being "rude" or "mean-spirited," and they view things like this CoC as a push by the thin-skinned to institutionalizing niceness at the expense of honesty.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#205

Post by sonnyblarney » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

conradfr wrote: post #183

To the person who said (since deleted or moderated) that Linus changed because "they" had dirt on him : his daughter signed the "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" and is into "intersectional feminism" so I think a more pragmatic answer is that she convinced him to change.

There's no need for intersectionalism in this at all.

In fact, I'd argue it's wrong.

Intersectionalism would argue that peoople of different backgrounds must have special treatment.

There's no need for that whatsoever.

All we need is for people to not personally attack or demean others.

After that ... people should be free to be more 'candid' at the possibly cost of upsetting someone, or more 'sensitive' at the possibly cost of the message being lost in sugar coating as they feel suited.

Linus can be harsh as long as it's valid criticism of a subject (or maybe big corp), not a person.

Beyond that he's fully within his rights to say whatever. He does not need to treat people different given whatever background they have.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#206

Post by ethbro » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:23 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #140

simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

>You'll find that the vast majority of people are vastly less extreme than what twitter and reddit would have you believe. Yep. The medium itself makes everybody look about 100 times more radical than they actually are. Look at it this way: if you're busy working on a small technical detail, your conversation will be around that detail, right? You may be an asshole, and it looks like he's working on that, but you're…

> Sometimes you know something's wrong, and you feel strongly about it -- but you're unable to articulate it in a manner that can be easily consumed.

When I think about effective leaders I've known in my career, this is as good of a description of their defining skill as I've heard.

They have the ability to correctly identify an issue and then communicate it in a way that others also recognize it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#207

Post by richard_todd » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:23 PM UTC

gambler wrote: post #100

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make i…

Yeah that’s what stood out to me when I read it, as well. Everything was sounding reasonable, and then he gets to this part I read as: “my anti-PC position was untenable because bad people are also anti-PC and I don’t want to be associated with them.” That’s just not a viable way to operate. I’m sure some of the most vile people on the planet use Linux... should he stop to avoid being associated with them? Besides, if your motivation is not liking when people compare you to a Nazi, then Godwin’s law says you can’t win no matter how hard you try. The lack of objective measures he referenced early in the article will allow his accusers to shift their criteria at will.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#208

Post by beaconstudios » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

AllegedAlec wrote: post #199

beaconstudios wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not turning around and saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". incidentally, the people who did decide to do this became the alt-right.

Alt-right was a term used by grass-roots movements and libertarians long before the term was ever co-opted by other groups. If you mean neo-nazis, just say neo-nazis.

I mean neo-nazis, neoreactionaries, neo-fascists, all those types. Basically the subset of /pol/ and stormfront users who genuinely believe what they espouse. At least that's my interpretation of the term.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#209

Post by Iem6gaoc » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

> Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

If empathy is a critical skill that can be developed, then it should be made part of the school curriculum and graded.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#210

Post by Sharlin » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

08-15 wrote: post #159

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Imagine you are Linux and you receive a messy patch so poorly structured that you can't follow the logic of the code. As Tony Hoare used to put it, the kind of code that doesn't have obvious bugs, but isn't obviously free of bugs. What do you tell the submitter? You can't really point at specific problems, merely at a gut feeling that the mess must be hiding problems. Then the submitter shoots back: "You rejected my…

How does this relate to anything? Even if that very hypothetical scenario were to happen, how do you think it would be more helpful for Linus to respond with an aggressive rant rather than a matter-of-fact ”Sorry, I can’t follow this, please try to refactor”?