YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#201

Post by jaredklewis » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #119

b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

As has been pointed out, in lots of areas a "balanced" view doesn't make sense. I'm reminded of the judgement of Solomon dictating that, to settle a dispute between two women as to whom a baby belonged to, it should be cut in half and they be given half each. For a lot of social issues, being given the midpoint solution is like being given half a baby. "All humans are created equal and endowed with rights" is a radic…

I don’t think balanced means “in the middle.” Someone can espouse a solution to a problem that is extremely liberal or extremely conservative and still have a balanced viewpoint.

I consider somone to have a balanced point of view if they can recognize that all solutions have tradeoffs, frankly discuss the tradeoffs of different solutions, and argue why their proposed solution is the most attractive option. I think it is also important to recognize how sure we are about the effects of different things. Some things we are very sure about. Others (like predicting market reactions to government policy), less so. The world is complex and any argument that isn’t complex probably isn’t balanced.

As an example, if I ask someone what their least favorite part of their favorite programming language is and they say, “nothing, it’s perfect,” I can safely assume they are a partisan idiot. One can believe an extreme programming language like Elm is the best solution available and still have a balanced view of it.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#202

Post by commandlinefan » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

MrQuincle wrote: post #92

dragonwriter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal is to make people spend as much time on a site as possible, and feeding people progressively more extreme content works for that. While I understand the attractiveness of conspiratorial hypotheses, I think there is a simple explanation that applies to recommendation systems generally: such systems are designed, overtly, to identify content the user is likely t…

To have an algorithm that favors extreme content above non-extreme content because it keeps people hooked is indeed unlikely to be programmed directly. I actually don't think it's learning personal preferences like you suggest either. It likely is a collaborative filtering method. You get served what people "similar to you" have watched most. Similarity is based on your watching behavior. If you watched 1,2,5,6,7 and…

> unlikely to be programmed directly

In fact, YouTube is very left-leaning internally - if they were deliberately biasing content, you’d expect it to be biased in the other direction.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#203

Post by dwaltrip » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

pasquinelli wrote: post #192

dwaltrip wrote: post #20

I use incognito mode for probably close to half of the YouTube videos I watch, as a defense against the algorithm. That technique, plus freely using the "not interested" button, has actually resulted in a pretty good experience.

I actually want youtube to recommend me videos, because it recommends me stuff i'm interested in a good deal of the time. I can keep it fairly clear of toxic content in the same way i can keep my garden fairly clear of weeds: constant vigilance.

Yeah, perhaps I wasn't completely fair. For some of the content I watch, I'm quite happy with what they recommend. But as you said I have to be constantly vigilant with the rest.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#204

Post by b0rsuk » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #185

b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

Elon Musk and Nick Bostrom were mocked for warning about the dangers of powerful future AI. I've said this here before, the primary use cases of machine learning right now, today, are hostile. That does not bode well for our future. We have very manipulative advertising, mass surveillance used to put ethnic and religious minorities in concentration camps in China, and in YouTube's case, recommending a lot of totally…

If you watch the 20ish minute talk, she really doesn't limit it to youtube, but also talks about Facebook, Twitter etc.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#205

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#206

Post by undefined1 » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

lsmarigo wrote: post #104

As a content creator it's very quickly apparent the best route to driving views and subs is to push extreme/edgy content. Balanced content gets no engagement. It's really that simple, with the ADHD short attention span of the current gen of heavy media consumers (read: kids) you have to shock them/surprise them/make them laugh ~once every 5-6 seconds to keep them on the video. YouTube offers very detailed metrics on…

There are some exceptions fortunately and a growing hunger for the very opposite.

See Sam Harris for the best (IMO) example. And long form interview formats like what Joe Rogan is doing.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#207

Post by b0rsuk » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #119

b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

As has been pointed out, in lots of areas a "balanced" view doesn't make sense. I'm reminded of the judgement of Solomon dictating that, to settle a dispute between two women as to whom a baby belonged to, it should be cut in half and they be given half each. For a lot of social issues, being given the midpoint solution is like being given half a baby. "All humans are created equal and endowed with rights" is a radic…

Even if your first sentence was true, I don't think it would explain why content with extreme views dominates. Perhaps because it causes more emotion, and the algorithms senses that emotions is what people crave.

As a counterpoint to yours, Aristotle was famous for his golden middle principle. That in vast majority of matters(notable exceptions: murder, theft, adultery) you can only achieve happiness if you do and experience everything in moderation. Don't ignore your desires, but also don't submit to them completely.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#208

Post by propman » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

fareesh wrote: post #26

The international corporate media has not been honest in its reporting of the refugee situation in Europe. This is becoming clearer year by year, because some of the facts that were earlier dismissed as racist rhetoric are now becoming very difficult to ignore. For example earlier this year, Chancellor Merkel finally admitted that there are "no-go" zones in the country where even the police dare not go. This is an ex…

Wow your comment and mine were flagged. Absolutely amazing. Not a single thing wrong with mine or yours.

Great critical thinking guys, have fun in your complete echo chamber. If you can’t even have a discussion from someone who wants one and is willing to have an open mind and asking questions, not surprised at all that the entire world is slowly rejecting the current orthodoxy that has given us peace and prosperity for 70 years. Let it all go down the drain due to sheer arrogance and stupidity.

If you disagree with anything I said, downvote and reply back. Only flag if I broke any rules or attacked anyone in any way. Cowards.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#209

Post by beefield » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #185

b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

Elon Musk and Nick Bostrom were mocked for warning about the dangers of powerful future AI. I've said this here before, the primary use cases of machine learning right now, today, are hostile. That does not bode well for our future. We have very manipulative advertising, mass surveillance used to put ethnic and religious minorities in concentration camps in China, and in YouTube's case, recommending a lot of totally…

> I've said this here before, the primary use cases of machine learning right now, today, are hostile

Yes. As I think that it is quite obvious the majority of current AI is only superficially designed to help me, while fundamentally they are designed quite successfully to f#ck me and get my money, I have occasionally tried to figure out ways to somehow level the playing field against the current crop of AI, but it is difficult. One of the only tools actually having any effect is adblocking. And if I engage in that, I am blamed that I strip content creators of their income. I guess the fundamental problem is that nobody has any economic incentive to fight against the current AI army, while a large bunch of people seem to actually enjoy getting manipulated (to buy unnecessary stuff or get radicalized to some fringe ideology) by our machine overlords.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#210

Post by b0rsuk » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #55

b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

> She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal is to make people spend as much time on a site as possible, and feeding people progressively more extreme content works for that. While I understand the attractiveness of conspiratorial hypotheses, I think there is a simple explanation that applies to recommendation systems generally: such systems are designed, overtly, to identify content the user is likely t…

Please do watch the TED talk by Zeynep. She actually says something along these lines - that it's not so much a conspiracy but probably an unfortunate side effect. What the system ultimately cares about is that people stay longer on a site if they're fed more extreme content.

From my brief experience with neural networks, they work very well for some kinds of tasks but you never know why they calibrate themselves this way. One of uses of neural networks that impresses me the most is Keldon AI, the free (open source) app for Race for the Galaxy board game. Traditional game AI is notably bad with "fuzzy logic" - when you're unable exhaustively calculate everything, and your opponent is just getting some cards. Well it turns out machine learning doesn't care about that. It cares that if it has X cards in hand and you have Y cards in hand, and the table looks so and so, playing card Z has C chance of landing a win in the long run. Or something like that. And it works! But if you look inside the rftg app, you'll just see piles of numbers. Just weights. SO when you play against it, you see what it played, but you're never sure why, and it can't explain itself. Zeynep actually talks about this, but in more sinister context. For instance deep learning algorithms are eerily good at detecting bipolar people. They can take advantage of people with various mental disabilities and disorders. Think of the consequences. What if this is used to create your personal profile and share it across shops you visit.