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GIMP receives a $100K donation

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Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#201

Post by jandrese »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #154
jandrese wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I've found GIMP's UI to be easier than Photoshop's, but I started out with the GIMP. I wonder if maybe they shouldn't go with a XUL like system where the UI can be greatly customized by third parties. Someone would undoubtedly create the Photoshop clone UI and make a bunch of people happy.

That's how GTK ( The GIMP Toolkit ) started, isn't? I'd rather have them focus on GIMP's core features, maybe UI enhancements, but certainly not on platform-building. Edit: or rather, create a SketchUp clone with good 2D projection/export (Blender isn't for casual use)

Pretty much. The GIMP developers couldn't find a toolkit that fit their needs so they wrote their own. Other people with the same problem then used their toolkit.

Back when the GIMP was developed your options were pretty limited. There was Athena Widgets which are basically the cave drawings of the computer world. Motif which had licensing issues. OpenWindows widgets which were notoriously buggy and ugly. There wasn't much else to choose from. There's a reason GTK exploded so quickly after release.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#202

Post by tokyodude »

boudin wrote: post #93
adiusmus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I used gimp it wouldn’t save a file in different format - I had to export it. For someone that just wants to grab an image, touch it up and resave it, gimp just irritates. There’s at least another 50 of these kinds of small annoyances that add up to one large dealbreaker for me. Of course none are bugs - it’s likely just intended behaviour that the developers think is great. For what I need to do Krita is m…

That's more a question of wording rather than an issue. In gimps export is for formats with which you lose information (your layers for example), save is for formats allowing you to re-open you file as you let it and continue working on it

Not, it's not. It's a question of getting work done vs fighting your tools.

As someone that edits PNGs and JPGs often with Photoshop I double click the file in the Finder (mac) or Windows Explorer (win) and suddenly I'm editing the PNG or JPG. I make some edits, if I add layers or features that can't be saved back to those formats I flatten the editing (Cmd-Shift-E, of course also on menus in 2 places). I then just press Cmd-S/Ctrl-S to save. No questions asked, no dialog pops up. Click->Edit->Save. If you have to edit often it's a huge difference with no interrupt in workflow.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#203

Post by CarVac »

TekMol wrote: post #136

Please give us non-destructive adjustment layers! Please! Been waiting for this for years. On every new Gimp release I look through the new features and ... no. No adjustment layers. I'm confused how this is not the #1 priority. It has been what I am missing for years and years. And every time I talk to someone about Gimp vs Photoshop, they ask me 'Do you still have to cope with destructive adjustment curves and filt…

Have you tried PhotoFlow?

It's a newer open source photo editor (though not pixel editor) that allows you to compose your own non-destructive processing pipeline from individual operations.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#204

Post by wongarsu »

gnulinux wrote: post #181
wongarsu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It essentially felt like Emacs for 3D editing. Which is exactly the complaint :D Blender has a very efficient UI that is great for power users, but it has a much bigger learning curve than the competition with their point&click UIs. Add to that that most people are trained on Maya/3ds Max/Cinema 4d, learning Blender is a big investment with uncertain payoff. Basically the same reason why very few people use Emacs or…

> Basically the same reason why very few people use Emacs or Vim nowadays. Wow, this is such a bold statement; do you have any evidence to support this? In my experience a very great majority of engineers use vim or emacs. In US, I've never been in a culture where emacs or vim is used by a minority. In my current work, which is a startup in Boston, everyone except 2 developers use emacs. I googled for evidence to sup…

We appear to be living in very different bubbles then.

The best evidence I could find is the Stackoverflow Survey [1]. Around the middle it asks for the "most popular development environments" (multiple selection possible). The leaders are Visual Studio Code, Visual Studio and Notepad++ with 34% each, followed by Sublime. Vim is fifth place, Emacs 15th place with just 4.1%. But it's heavily dependent on the community you look at, for example Vim is less popular with mobile developers and very popular with sysadmins/devops.

There is also a "prefered code editor" in the golang survey. Vim is second most popular, yet Vim and Emacs make for only a combined 16%.

According to the Rust survey [3] the rust community seems to love Vim though. 46% use Vim and 15.4% use Emacs.

A Python survey [4](by Jetbrains) has Vim at 10% and Emacs at 3%.

So from a quick look Emacs seems to be used by 2-4% of developers on a regular basis, while Vim use varies heavily between communities. So I might have to retract my statement on Vim, but I feel reasonably confident to say that Emacs is used by a tiny minority of people.

1: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/

2: https://blog.golang.org/survey2017-results

3: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/09/05/Rust-2017-Survey-Resul...

4: https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-...

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#205

Post by tokyodude »

acomjean wrote: post #100
RankingMember wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GIMP still lacks non-destructive editing, does it not? That alone is a huge deficiency in comparison to Photoshop.

Photoshop had non-destructive editing now? Its been a while ,but I thought that was lightroom that had the non-destructive editing features. Photoshop for me was about layers and masks

Photoshop had non-destructive editing for 15-20 years.

I think the issues are getting confused. Yes, Lightroom saves a separate file from your photos of the changes so in that sense it's non destructive, the original files are not changed.

Photoshop is non-destructive in that you can load an image into a layer and apply tons of layers above that layer each of which edits the layers below it in some way. The pixels in the image layer are never changed so it's also "non-destructive". But saving the file does overwrite the old photoshop file with your changes, unlike lightroom.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#206

Post by Broken_Hippo »

gnulinux wrote: post #174
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still should be an option under save-as. I can do this with paint.net. I do this all the time with Corel Painter. Any work in progress gets saved in a way that opens with the layers (corel's format). When I'm done, I can simply collapse the layers and save in a number of formats. No big deal. I understand that some formats simply don't allow the layers. That shouldn't be an issue, though. All it takes is a popup t…

> It still should be an option under save-as. Why? I don't understand this. You're not "saving" what you see on the monitor by storing the information to a .png file; the moment you "save" you'll lose some information decided by an algorithm you do not understand, so it really is not "saving" anything, it's "exporting" what you see on the monitor to a different format. When you actually click the "save" button in gim…

Simple save does the same function in Corel in general. It isn't that it isn't a photoshop clone that is an issue, though for a slew of folks, they are using it as an alternative.

When x is standard workflow for many of the other such programs (and things like word processors) and it isn't such in Gimp, that very thing drives people away. Most artists aren't going to care what the software engineers want in the program: Instead, they are going to care about things like this. When added up, it just makes for a frustrating experience. It doesn't really matter what the technicalities are if you are the artist.

Yes, you do lose some information depending on the format. Heck, I notice loss simply looking at an image on different screens. The fact is, though, that folks actually need to save in different formats. Sure, I keep my layers and information in tact while working, but folks also need to be able to share their work, print it, and things like that. For that sort of thing, you need the different formats. The exact format depends on what one is doing: PNG works for facebook and instagram. Some sites have file size limits, and with some printing you have a bit more leeway.

I'm not even a photoshop fan myself: I chose my software based on both if it was easily integrated with a Wacom pen display and how well it mimicked traditional artwork flow and styles. Hence my use of Corel. Photoshop is basically a renting program now, and I generally welcome alternatives. Gimp has always been somewhat frustrating because of little stuff like this.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#207

Post by tokyodude »

ginko wrote: post #40
darkwinx wrote: post #2

I hope that someday GIMP will have major change just like Krita & Blender. The UI of GIMP have received many complains.

I never understood that complaint with the Blender UI. If anything Blender's UI even before the whole 2.5 change was a lot more streamlined and less stupid point&click than for instance Maya. It essentially felt like Emacs for 3D editing. But maybe that's because I started out on Blender and only had a cursory look at Maya. Same with GIMP. I have years of experience working with GIMP so if you sat me in front of phot…

Because it's different than pretty much all other modern software. Nearly all other software you follow you click on things to select them. Shift click or Ctrl click to add to your selection. Once something is selected you can move it. Even here in this browser I'm using the write this comment I can select some text, if I then drag the selection it moves, if I right click, ctrl click a bunch of options appear related to what I selected. The menu options also affect the selection.

Blender is pretty much the only program I use of the 100s I have that doesn't follow this UI pattern so I can't take all the knowledge of the other 100s of apps I use and apply that knowledge to blender. Even limiting to just 3D programs I can figure out Maya, 3DSMax, Cinema 3D, DAZ etc just by doing what I do in all other software. Select stuff and then see what my options are. Blender though doesn't follow these rules. You can't just explore. You absolutely have to read the manual to even just load, select, move, and save. Something I can do in all other software without a manual.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#208

Post by nemo »

lucb1e wrote: post #176
TekMol wrote: post #136

Please give us non-destructive adjustment layers! Please! Been waiting for this for years. On every new Gimp release I look through the new features and ... no. No adjustment layers. I'm confused how this is not the #1 priority. It has been what I am missing for years and years. And every time I talk to someone about Gimp vs Photoshop, they ask me 'Do you still have to cope with destructive adjustment curves and filt…

I've used GIMP for years but I have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps it's not the #1 priority because you're one of a small percentage of people who need it? While I'm not someone who needs image editing professionally or who makes amazing things with it, I did take my time to learn GIMP properly for my use-cases, and the things I find lacking do not include "non-destructive adjustment layers".

Virtually anyone coming from Photoshop with basic knowledge of the app uses adjustment layers. You can add a layer that applies filters to a mask that leaves the layers beneath untouched. They're incredibly powerful. It's rare I have a project that doesn't use them, and it's among the reasons I wouldn't even consider using GIMP for anything new, despite wishing I could use the app.

Re: GIMP receives a $100K donation

#209

Post by tathougies »

adiusmus wrote: post #83
nothis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to support GIMP but, especially for fast, professional use, the UI makes it impossible. Their raw features are on par with anything I'd want to do in Photoshop, it's 100% a UI issue at this point. And I don't get why it's this hard for open source projects to realize that (the only notable exception I know is Firefox, which I love).

Last time I used gimp it wouldn’t save a file in different format - I had to export it. For someone that just wants to grab an image, touch it up and resave it, gimp just irritates. There’s at least another 50 of these kinds of small annoyances that add up to one large dealbreaker for me. Of course none are bugs - it’s likely just intended behaviour that the developers think is great. For what I need to do Krita is m…

They really should not do that. Saving implies that you can save the entire state of the image in a file, including layers, etc. Exporting implies saving a file as a different format that may not be 100% faithful to what you see in the app.

Disallowing saving follows the principle of least surprise, because when an application reports a successful save, users would expect the application state they see to actually be saved.

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