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Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

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Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#201

Post by protomok »

Just a quick warning for those considering Melatonin before a flight or for adjusting to jet lag:

About a week before a long flight I decided to test Melatonin and took a single 3mg tablet (smallest dosage I could find at my local pharmacy) before I went to bed. My sleep quality seemed unchanged but right after breakfast the next day I had gastro issues.

I tried a 3 mg tablet again a few days later and had the same symptoms.

I gave up on Melatonin deciding it was better to be wide awake over the Pacific than stuck in a tiny airplane bathroom :)

YMMV but other folks online have had similar side effects. It seems a small % of people have gastro issues but if you're considering Melatonin I suggest a small dosage first (maybe 0.3mg as recommended by the article) and a test _before_ travelling!

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#202

Post by ozmbie »

anonu wrote: post #153

Couple anecdotal points: - Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists. - Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post. - Magnesium Glycinate pills bef…

Have you tried meditation? Nothing fancy, just taking 15 minutes to focus on breathing exercises.

Whenever I find my mind racing at night, it's because I haven't taken any "down time" during the day. Laying in bed at night is often the first moment of my entire day (other than taking a shower) where I have no external stimulation of work or entertainment.

Best of luck with everything though!

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#203

Post by rabidhamster »

hiram112 wrote: post #194
anonu wrote: post #153

Couple anecdotal points: - Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists. - Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post. - Magnesium Glycinate pills bef…

Where did you get the idea for Magnesium Glycinate? Never heard of it. My sleep cycle has been out of whack since 17 years old. I've learned the hard way - no school jobs, relationships, etc. that require early mornings. I have been able to improve things with a half of dose of Ambien 2-3x a week. I've heard good reports from some of the newer patented drugs (Lunesta, I think) but they're still quite expensive.

Lunesta is available cheaply as a generic under the name eszopiclone.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#204

Post by ianai »

haukilup wrote: post #145
Angostura wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The take-away from that sounds as if you found a sleeping-mask helpful, but there's not much evidence that melatonin had any effect.

> The take-away from that sounds as if you found a sleeping-mask helpful, but there's not much evidence that melatonin had any effect. How can you reasonably conclude anything from your position, having only read that short comment? They have all the context and data and came to their conclusion. It might or might not be correct, but you're in no place to refute them on the topic of what has helped them personally.

The take away for me was that I have to let the melatonin work. It’s not a benzodiazepine. It won’t knock you out in 15 minutes like a benzodiazepine. But if you don’t counteract it with stimulants (and staring at a light is a stimulant) then it will work for you. It’s probably a lot healthier because of its subtlety too. At the time, I worked a late shift. That meant once I got home I went into dark out mode - to counteract all the stimulation from work. I didn’t absolutely have to do that for melatonin to work, but I was able to push up my sleeping time by doing that alongside melatonin. Ie melatonin works, but melatonin and other restful things I should otherwise be doing helped even more. Synergistically.

At the end of the day, you literally have to decide to end your day.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#205

Post by RandomInteger4 »

jonhendry18 wrote: post #132
RandomInteger4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly 30 minutes before I hit the pillow works for me. I use the normal melatonin (non-chews), but I suck on them till they dissolve in my mouth, because I hate when they get stuck in my epiglottis; you get used to the bitter flavor after a bit. I'm going to assume this is safe because chewables exist.

Why not just take it with a small amount of water?

Water isn't a magic lubricant. Pills still get stuck in my epiglottis with water. Usually when I take pills, I do it followed by a piece of bread and then water, but prior to bed I don't want to eat anything after brushing my teeth and the pill dissolves nicely, and like I said, I assume it's safe, because chewables exist (obviously other drugs don't work in a similar manner).

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#206

Post by bluedino »

dogcow wrote: post #161
anonu wrote: post #153

Couple anecdotal points: - Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists. - Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post. - Magnesium Glycinate pills bef…

I am sharing my experience because I know how awful sleep problems can be. I'm in my 30s and eat what many consider a very healthful diet - virtually no sugar, just veggies, high quality fats and proteins, and minimal fruit. I spend 7-9 hours in bed; yet wake up feeling exhausted every. single. day. I'd love to exercise, but I'm too continuously tired to get started. Melatonin, when taken via dissolving sublingual ta…

Try some carbs

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#208

Post by joveian »

goldmouth wrote: post #71
oceanghost wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this for a decade. If you drink or smoke pot to sleep you will slowly go mad. They suppress deep sleep.

This is true for alcohol but I'm not sure about cannabis. In California, a heavy indica is a recommended by doctors for sleep. My understanding is that it only affects R.E.M. sleeep. Anecdotally, I track my sleep and when I smoked a heavy indica before bed I would consistently get at high 80 to 90% sleep quality. I'm on a couple of month tolerance break and have a hard time breaking 80% sleep quality.

I think you mean sleep efficiency here not sleep quality? Sleep quality isn't possible to measure precisely without EEG and usually both deep sleep and REM sleep are tracked (and both together are usually less than half of sleep).

I recently came accross Babson et al. 2017 Cannabis, Cannabinoids, and Sleep: a Review of the Literature:

http://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents/...

There hasn't been that much research (and most is on synthetic cb1 and cb2 agonists, not cannabis, and is short term). cb1 and cb2 receptors have different effects, and the dose (especially CBD) and length of use may both make a large difference. IIRC (and maybe not from this particular review) there is evidence that the same receptors may have opposite effects in different parts of the brain. cb1 receptors have a major role in circadian rhythm.

Some studies have shown increased slow wave sleep at least at first, but long term use and withdrawal may have the same issues as GABA-A agonists. Your current issues may be withdrawal effects or due to it helping or both.

Interestingly, the common anesthetic propofol inhibits an enzyme (FAAH) that breaks down the endocannabinoid anandamide. It might work well to combine endocannabinoid enhancers with other sleep aids (maybe melatonin), however research on those seems aimed at pain relief and hasn't worked out so there don't seem to be any good ones generally available. Pfizer did a Stage 1 sleep trial of the FAAH1 inhibitor PF-04457845 (by itself), but only to make sure it was passing the blood brain barrier. They didn't publish the results but it sounds like they found at least slightly reduced REM sleep (I'm not sure if there was increased deep sleep).

Some people have tried oleamide for sleep and it is a cb1 receptor agonist (among many other things including some kind of GABA effect). It sounds like it naturally accumulates during sleep deprevation. Looking online I have mostly found people reporting no effect, although I did see one person with primary insomnia who found it very helpful when cannabis wasn't. One person reported feeling tired and dizy all the time after a few weeks of use (resolving when they stopped) and the person who found it helpful said it felt like it wasn't a good thing to take every day. It is worth noting that it may have a fairly significant and direct dopamine system effect (vs indirect effect of cannabis) and that is one of the most fragile parts of the brain.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#209

Post by sdrothrock »

tananaev wrote: post #207

I occasionally use Melatonin to help me sleep on planes or adjust to new timezone, but I don't think it's a good idea to take it regularly.

I'm curious since this is currently apparently the highest-upvoted comment -- does OP (or any upvoters) have any (preferably reference-backed) reasoning for this?

Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated knee-jerk reaction at the top of the discussion.

I take melatonin once a week or so but haven't noticed any detrimental effects, so I do have a stick in the game and would like to know about potential issues if anything is out there.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#210

Post by cirgue »

dogcow wrote: post #161
anonu wrote: post #153

Couple anecdotal points: - Used to have to sleep problems - mainly just my mind racing with all the (stress of) things I had to do. The symptoms were trouble sleeping and/or waking in the middle of the night with instant thoughts of projects, task lists. - Melatonin didn't help me much. Maybe their effect was too subtle on me - maybe I was using the wrong dose as mentioned in the post. - Magnesium Glycinate pills bef…

I am sharing my experience because I know how awful sleep problems can be. I'm in my 30s and eat what many consider a very healthful diet - virtually no sugar, just veggies, high quality fats and proteins, and minimal fruit. I spend 7-9 hours in bed; yet wake up feeling exhausted every. single. day. I'd love to exercise, but I'm too continuously tired to get started. Melatonin, when taken via dissolving sublingual ta…

If you haven’t already, try doing an all-day physical activity (all-day hike, bike ride, or some other physical recreational activity) one day a week. For me, that made it a lot easier to start working out more.
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