How the Car Keeps Americans Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#201

Post by wilsonnb2 » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

citation_please wrote: post #139

maerF0x0 wrote: post #77

I find there are a number of things I cannot do without someone having a car. 1) Go hiking, snowboarding, mountain biking 2) Drive fast on road courses 3) Come home from the airport after midnight 4) Purchase more than 2 bags of groceries (including TP, laundry detergent et al) 5) Go on road trips 6) Isolate myself from the mentally ill or obnoxious behaviors and smells I'm surrounded by, including their fecal matter…

Have you considered that "isolating" yourself from the people in your community who are most in need has had a negative impact on both you and your community? And that you may vastly overestimate the presence of crime and homelessness because of this isolation? As someone who does take public transit on a daily basis and occasionally interacts with the homeless and petty criminals, the dehumanization of people in you…

I'm not the person you're responding to but I share that person's sentiment.

Some people don't like other people. Regardless of whether my neighbors are nice people who have an excess of delicious baked goods or meth addicts, I don't want to interact with them and I have no obligation to them just because of our proximity.

It's perfectly okay to not like being around people, especially people with obnoxious behaviors (whether they are because of a mental illness or otherwise) or people that smell bad.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#202

Post by wilsonnb2 » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #165

WhompingWindows wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the choice of an individual to get an F150 which has an unnecessarily large V8 engine roaring and idling when no one is using it for what it was designed for? I am in a city surrounded by cars that are far too large for their designated duties. People choose, like you mention, and yet it's the children with asthma and my mother with asthma who pays the price for the ridiculously oversized and smog-producin…

> I'm all for pickup trucks and minivans and buses, but only in the right application. I'm glad I don't live in a place where it's ok to limit people's choices based on someone's opinion on what is or isn't the 'right application.' I'm sorry about your mother's asthma; my 6 year old son is a type 1 diabetic - that doesn't make it ok for me to go chastising society's choice to put sugar in practically EVERYTHING we ea…

Unless someone is forcing your kid to eat food with sugar in it, it's not a good comparison.

Your neighbors don't really have a choice as to whether or not they enjoy "hearing its V8 roar from inside the house through several walls/doors" or breathe the extra pollution that some (but not all) large trucks create.

> When your kid spikes a fever at 1am and you have no car and you need to go buy some children’s ibuprofen, what are you going to do? I can run to my local 24/7 grocer or Walmart and be back in 10 minutes flat.

I'm sure your neighbors will love being woken up in the middle of the night. Perhaps some of them would be glad to live in a society where there are reasonable limits on what situations other people can force you into for their own pleasure.

Please note that this comment isn't really directed at you specifically - you might not have close neighbors or they might be truck enthusiasts as well. It's directed at all owners of obnoxiously loud trucks who don't care how it affects other people, which may or may not be you.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#203

Post by yellowapple » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #182

yellowapple wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can be fixed with some trees (or better yet: captalized upon with solar panels). Parking garages are another option for more space-efficient parking

Parking garages are much superior to flat parking lots, especially if you put them underground, underneath the buildings in question. Keep the eyesores hidden. The best option would be to make neighborhoods walkable/bikeable, implement good public transit as much as possible, and offer an affordable delivery service for bigger items. Going further, it would be beneficial to abolish megastores and return to more human…

"Parking garages are much superior to flat parking lots, especially if you put them underground, underneath the buildings in question. Keep the eyesores hidden."

Indeed. A lot of this sort of infrastructure can and should be built below-ground. Parking garages, warehouses/storage, utilities, the works.

"Going further, it would be beneficial to abolish megastores and return to more human-sized retail outlets."

Not sure if I follow. Megastores are nice as one-stop shops, reducing the need to drive around town to get everything.

I am in favor of making them more modularized/sectionalized, such that they can be rearranged vertically (whether above-ground or below-ground) and reduce the horizontal footprint. Their similarly-sprawling parking lots also can and should be replaced with underground parking garages.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#204

Post by KozmoNau7 » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #203

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parking garages are much superior to flat parking lots, especially if you put them underground, underneath the buildings in question. Keep the eyesores hidden. The best option would be to make neighborhoods walkable/bikeable, implement good public transit as much as possible, and offer an affordable delivery service for bigger items. Going further, it would be beneficial to abolish megastores and return to more human…

"Parking garages are much superior to flat parking lots, especially if you put them underground, underneath the buildings in question. Keep the eyesores hidden." Indeed. A lot of this sort of infrastructure can and should be built below-ground. Parking garages, warehouses/storage, utilities, the works. "Going further, it would be beneficial to abolish megastores and return to more human-sized retail outlets." Not sur…

My point regarding megastores is that they squeeze out neighborhood stores, which they can do because corporate is willing to burn money to take over markets.

Sterile charmless megastores are a symbol of unrestrained corporatism.

I don't mind department stores, but I do have a problem with Walmart and their ilk.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#205

Post by KozmoNau7 » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #200

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live without a car, and yet I manage to do all[1] of the things you mention by biking, using public transit and rental cars/vans/trucks on occasion. I thought it would be really annoying to live without a car, but it's actually quite nice, and I save so much money on fuel and maintenance. [1] aside from the road courses. I race gocarts for fun instead.

I agree that gocarts are hella fun! My posting said > without someone having a car. Care to share how you go snowboarding, #3 and #5-8 ? I have read mr money mustache write a lot about what can be accomplished by a bicycle + trailer. But even he still has a low cost car.

Snowboarding? Pack my stuff, take the train to the airport, fly to country with mountains, take train to ski resort town, go snowboarding. Optionally rent a car if necessary.

Road trips? Rent a car, or fly somewhere interesting and rent a car locally.

#5-8 I handle by not being needlessly paranoid and distrustful of other people. "The mentally ill and their obnoxious smells and fecal matter", seriously?

Obviously when you have a car right there, you tend to gravitate towards it, when all you have is a hammer etc.

I'm sure there's also a big cultural aspect to it. I also thought it would be hell to not have a car anymore, but it has turned out to rather easy and straight forward.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#206

Post by GiorgioG » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

wilsonnb2 wrote: post #202

GiorgioG wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for pickup trucks and minivans and buses, but only in the right application. I'm glad I don't live in a place where it's ok to limit people's choices based on someone's opinion on what is or isn't the 'right application.' I'm sorry about your mother's asthma; my 6 year old son is a type 1 diabetic - that doesn't make it ok for me to go chastising society's choice to put sugar in practically EVERYTHING we ea…

Unless someone is forcing your kid to eat food with sugar in it, it's not a good comparison. Your neighbors don't really have a choice as to whether or not they enjoy "hearing its V8 roar from inside the house through several walls/doors" or breathe the extra pollution that some (but not all) large trucks create. > When your kid spikes a fever at 1am and you have no car and you need to go buy some children’s ibuprofe…

> Your neighbors don't really have a choice as to whether or not they enjoy "hearing its V8 roar..."

You're right, they don't - but since many of them have a truck, it really isn't an issue. I'm honestly not a 'truck enthusiast', but I'd wanted one for the longest time and I'm happy with my choice. It makes trips to Home Depot / Lowes / etc a dream. Going to the mountains on vacation with it has been great as well - having gone up the side of a mountain up a single lane dirt road to a house we rented a couple of years ago (you never know what kind of infrastructure exists when you rent a place on VRBO/HomeAway/etc.) in our minivan was an experience let me tell you. This year we rented another place up in the mountains and having a truck was a godsend.

I don't remote start my truck at night (because I'd like to think I'm not an inconsiderate A-hole) - I only start the truck remotely during the day for a few minutes to get the A/C started since it's over 100 degrees (F) in summertime here. I let my non-truck owning neighbors/friend borrow my truck when they need it - so on the contrary, our neighbors love us.

Personally my experiences living in a city have been far louder and had much ruder neighbors than I could dream of than in our current situation (people blaring music at all hours of the night and early morning, driving cars with seemingly no mufflers or motorcyclists whose sole purpose seems to be to irritate everyone sleeping, domestic disputes between deaf people (otherwise why would I have been able to hear them from several houses over, etc.)

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#207

Post by BRAlNlAC » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

antt wrote: post #60

BRAlNlAC wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you shouldn't need to use either daily in a civilized society. This is either some next-level elitism or a false argument. Does the recluse have no place in society? What about the logger, or the Tractor operator? What about the surgeon who is on call, do you want them to bike to the hospital at 2 AM? I sure as hell don't. If your argument is that no individual should have to own a car, we already live in that A…

Tractors, trucks, ambulances and motor bikes are not cars. > we already live in that America. Perhaps you should visit the old town centres in Europe, or the country villages. You can see what a society built around not using cars looks like.

I have been to old town centers in Europe, you really ought to tone down your elitism.

What I meant when I said "tractor drivers getting to work" is people like my friend who grades and compacts pads for new homes. He drives a 4x4 pickup down a dirt road sometimes for 10+ miles to get to his tractor so he can start working. How does mass transit work for new construction?

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#208

Post by BRAlNlAC » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

zjaffee wrote: post #113

BRAlNlAC wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true, LA makes up a big portion of that "over 10%" hardly anyone in LA lives in anything remotely like high-density housing or lives there for much beyond the fantastic weather and job opportunities. Also, you don't do anything to address the parent comments point that plenty of people who live in higher-density areas would prefer to move to somewhere more rural, but can't because of life.

Hundreds of thousands of people live in high density areas of Los Angeles with densities far exceeding San Francisco's most dense areas. Also people live in LA for the same reason they live in other big cities, because it's incredibly diverse and vibrant. Traffic may be bad, but most people aren't in transit for that long anyways since the city is still pretty dense, and you can get everything you need within your ne…

but (hundreds of thousands[living in high density LA]) + (hundereds of thousands [living in high density SF]) + 8 million (living in NYC) =/= 10% * 350 million.

In fact, if we generously estimate that 10 million people live in high density metro areas that don't rely on cars we are looking at less than 3% of the US population. I think that is something to sneeze at.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#209

Post by BRAlNlAC » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #110

BRAlNlAC wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true, LA makes up a big portion of that "over 10%" hardly anyone in LA lives in anything remotely like high-density housing or lives there for much beyond the fantastic weather and job opportunities. Also, you don't do anything to address the parent comments point that plenty of people who live in higher-density areas would prefer to move to somewhere more rural, but can't because of life.

100% of the my friends and family who live in New York would live nowhere else in the country in spite of the extreme costs of living in Manhattan, when they could have equal incomes elsewhere. I know it's hard for you to believe, but some people like living in high density areas .

I understand that. But at the same time I know plenty of people who live in SF who would love to move to a more rural area, but they or their spouse can't find work in their field outside of metro areas and SF is close to their rural roots. Some people don't like living in high density areas, but find themselves their out of circumstance.

Re: How the Car Keeps Americans Apart

#210

Post by yellowapple » Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #204

yellowapple wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Parking garages are much superior to flat parking lots, especially if you put them underground, underneath the buildings in question. Keep the eyesores hidden." Indeed. A lot of this sort of infrastructure can and should be built below-ground. Parking garages, warehouses/storage, utilities, the works. "Going further, it would be beneficial to abolish megastores and return to more human-sized retail outlets." Not sur…

My point regarding megastores is that they squeeze out neighborhood stores, which they can do because corporate is willing to burn money to take over markets. Sterile charmless megastores are a symbol of unrestrained corporatism. I don't mind department stores, but I do have a problem with Walmart and their ilk.

Wal-Mart as a specific example also happens to be readily affordable and available to lower-class (let alone middle-class) Americans 24-hours a day and 7 days a week. Very few neighborhood or even department stores offer that, nor do most grocers (Safeway being a notable exception). It's for that reason that I tend to appreciate Wal-Mart's existence; yeah, it certainly ain't the best employer, and I know I personally prefer shopping at the mom-and-pop stores, but I also recognize that most Americans don't have the privilege of being choosy about those sorts of things.

As an additional bonus, most Wal-Marts (in my observation) will let you park your car there overnight, no questions asked. For someone who's homeless and living out of one's car, or for someone who's traveling and can't afford lodging, that's a pretty huge help.