Remote Only • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote Only

#201

Post by mseebach » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:49 AM UTC

aspaceman wrote: post #74

dopamean wrote: post #51

This "manifesto" really clarified for me something that I've often noticed about people who strongly believe in remote working but had trouble putting to words. For a lot of people remote work is less about the actual remote aspect of it and more about the kind of relationship the employee has with their employer. It is a relationship where I think the employee is more empowered and freer to find a work life balance…

Precisely. And I think this is why many employers are also highly hesitant about remote work (at times). They don't necessarily want to give their employees that much power, but they lack the courage to say that directly. And instead you hear the criticism that it's less productive.

You're asserting a kind of direct malicious intent that I don't think is fair. Certainly, remote work puts some demands on the manager that a bad manager won't be able to handle. If anything, it's an unwillingness to confront this inability.

But remote work also puts very high demand on the workers: they have to be very conscientious, self-motivated and proactive and effective communicators. Everybody know slackers who are not pulling their weights, and who would slack even harder if given the "power". The idea that "working from home" could be a euphemism for a half day+ off did not gestate out of the blue in a mean-spirited managers head. A classically managed working environment can mitigate a lot of this in a way remote environments can't.

A successful remote working environment requires a particular non-average grade of manager and employee.

Re: Remote Only

#202

Post by hellofunk » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:53 AM UTC

a13n wrote: post #181

hellofunk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seoul is not everywhere. South Korea is quite technologically advanced. Try doing more traveling in SE Asia, you’ll see how bad it can be.

We actually spent three months in Vietnam, Thailand, and the Philippines and also had a fabulous experience with cell data.

You will typically find cell data to be better than cable or land connections in nearly all the countries you mentioned.

But remote developers don't typically work off cell data; your data limit will get hit very quickly.

Philippines in particular has terrible internet connections for homes, in general.

In fact in many places, cell data is the only data available, there are no land connections.

Re: Remote Only

#203

Post by mmt » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:53 AM UTC

inertiatic wrote: post #177

mmt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, see, the way to get it "clean" is by washing ones hands regularly with soap and warm water (ideally before touching it [1]). Really, though, you're making the (likely false) assumption that ones "junk" is the only thing touched in the restroom. You're also ignoring the potential for aeresolized bits of feces sprayed by commercial flush mechanisms. None of this adds up to "filthy" per se, but hand washing is one…

I always do both and it feels extremely weird to see people not actually do it. In between bathroom breaks at work I've touched my desk, keyboard, smartphone screen, perhaps adjusted my shoes, perhaps shook someones hand. By that time, hands already feel filthy enough to not want to touch myself anywhere before washing.

I suspect that's where you may be crossing over into an irrational fear of dirt and/or germs, which can lead to, at the very least, people being dismissive of concerns.

After all, your desk, keyboard, smartphone screen, and even shoes aren't likely to be places other people have touched, so not much potential for spreading anything.

Shaking hands, though.. filthy habit ;)

Re: Remote Only

#204

Post by zerostar07 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:54 AM UTC

existencebox wrote: post #13

hartator wrote: post #6

> Disadvantages > Scares investors - Scares some partners - Scares some customers - Scares some potential employees, mostly senior non-technical hires - Onboarding is harder, first month feels lonely We do a full remote policy at SerpApi.com, however I found this disadvantages list a bit dishonest, they are more way numerous and important, the most obvious are missing real human contacts (and it doesn't get easier wi…

I don't share your pessimism about the list of downsides, and am honestly surprised, as while normally I chuckle at the "HN is always negative" sentiment, this post being the top reply is a real head scratcher, as someone who is both 1. on a >75% remote team, and 2. who has been advocating/watching HN advocate for remote for quite some time. I'd say "missing real human contacts" is summarized well under a combination…

I think a lot of it has to do with HN being frequented by people in SF who do like their workplaces, and are being overwhelmingly incentivized monetarily to like them. People outside US seem to be a lot more sympathetic to the idea.

If the downside is "lack of separate workspace / human contact", then it is blown way out of proportion imho. It's easily solved by using a coworking space, and it's not reason enough to dismiss remote work.

Re: Remote Only

#205

Post by zerostar07 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

maccard wrote: post #172

nemothekid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to be dismissive, but "that seems like a personal problem." This is incredibly dismissive. Almost all the "advantages for employees" are personal. How is "No commuting time or stress" not a personal benefit? The advantages for remote work are almost entirely being sold that they are better for people . If someone has a personal problem with an aspect of it, then it should be taken seriously. Imagine if…

> How is "No commuting time or stress" not a personal benefit? My commute is a 20 minute walk through a very nice park, and my partner walks the same route in the morning. It’s one of my favourite parts of the day, and it would be a hard push to get me to give that up right now.

You 're suggesting that you have to be forced by your employer to take a walk in the park. I think you 're justifying the parent's dismissive comment.

Re: Remote Only

#206

Post by bufferoverflow » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

allday wrote: post #18

> Save on compensation due to hiring in lower cost regions Pay people what they're worth regardless of where they live. If you have a developer in Nigeria or Ukraine or Vietnam that is as equally capable as a developer in the Bay Area, they should be paid the same. Doing otherwise, at best, perpetuates Western hegemony, and at worst is simply racism.

It's not racism, it's simple market forces. Supply and demand and the local cost of living. Someone living in Ukraine will do just fine on 10% of what a Bay Area dev gets paid.

Re: Remote Only

#207

Post by nvarsj » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

My somewhat reductive conclusion about remote work is that it boils down to the ability to be an effective writer.

If you're not good at written communication, or you work with people who are not good at it, remote work will be miserable.

People who are not highly fluent in the company's written language or those with some level of dyslexia will struggle. Also some people get frustrated with the more analytic approach required by text, relying instead on spoken rhetoric.

I think even if you're colocated, there are huge benefits to following the remote work practices and improving your written communication. Documenting your work in an issue manager and using chat primarily for communication means no one will miss out, even if someone is sick, a new starter, or on a different team. All these things can make a dev organisation much more effective and break down silos.

Re: Remote Only

#208

Post by jasonkester » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #197

jasonkester wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's how markets work. Markets work by paying for value created. I’ve tested extensively, and found that I’m equally capable of writing code on a beach in Thailand as in a felt cube in California. I’ll grant that there is a Cost of Living difference between those places, but I would prefer that difference to be captured by me rather than somebody else’s company. It’s me doing the work and creating the value, so that…

Unfortunately, you will get outpriced by people doing "the same" work for less. Since you cannot know the global prices, you cannot even meet them, much less compete. Lowest bidder often wins.

I know, right? I've lost track of all the money I've lost from clients going with the lowest bidder over the years. I must be literally hundreds of dollars by now.

A bit of advice: Those cheap guys are not your competition, and those bargain hunter clients are not the ones you're trying to land. Let them all race to the bottom all they want. Maybe one of them will find a dev who doesn't know his value yet, but the rest will get their money's worth. It doesn't concern you.

There is only one of you, and your rate is the same whether you're onsite in the Bay Area or working remote from anywhere else you choose to be.

That mindset has served me well over the years. I'd recommend taking it on board.

Re: Remote Only

#209

Post by minipci1321 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 10:20 AM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #207

My somewhat reductive conclusion about remote work is that it boils down to the ability to be an effective writer. If you're not good at written communication, or you work with people who are not good at it, remote work will be miserable. People who are not highly fluent in the company's written language or those with some level of dyslexia will struggle. Also some people get frustrated with the more analytic approac…

> it boils down to the ability to be an effective writer.

effective reader too. One should be able to quickly make sense out of several hunbdreds of email messages, otherwise it will end up in "synchronous mode" -- dozen of messaging windows opened at every moment.

Re: Remote Only

#210

Post by speleding » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 10:25 AM UTC

aspaceman wrote: post #74

dopamean wrote: post #51

This "manifesto" really clarified for me something that I've often noticed about people who strongly believe in remote working but had trouble putting to words. For a lot of people remote work is less about the actual remote aspect of it and more about the kind of relationship the employee has with their employer. It is a relationship where I think the employee is more empowered and freer to find a work life balance…

Precisely. And I think this is why many employers are also highly hesitant about remote work (at times). They don't necessarily want to give their employees that much power, but they lack the courage to say that directly. And instead you hear the criticism that it's less productive.

An an employer who allows people to work remotely. My experience has been that some employees cannot handle the responsibility and their output drops a lot if they're not behind their desk. Others are fine / better. (Because I found it hard to tell some people they're not allowed to work remotely, while others can, I ended up replacing the ones who performed poorly when working remote.)

My point is that you cannot really argue for or against remote work without taking into account that your employees might not all be suitable for that work style. (But if you're building a new organisation then you can pick the right people from the start)