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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#201

Post by John_KZ »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #36
mtgx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was IBM's providing of tech to the Nazis to kill Jewish people more effectively neutral or intrinsically evil? I try to avoid comparisons to the Nazis (even though many more people seem to be doing it these days with Trump in power), but isn't Google basically providing the government the technology to more effectively kill people in the Middle East , too? That's what it is at the end of the day, isn't it? History wi…

This isn’t a well reasoned position at all. You can’t summarily declare that all wars or actions taken by the military are morally equivalent to an ethnoreligios genocide.

Is there another use for these drones right now? Because all I've seen is pretty close to "ethnoreligious genocide". Many people straightforwardly advocate for it.

Can you really pretend that you're developing "neutral" weapons technology in this climate?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#202

Post by apatters »

bonesss wrote: post #180
apatters wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all highly opinionated statements, but: - If you're American, you should support Google developing technology for the US military. - If you're human, you should support a foreign policy that only considers military action as a last resort. - If you're human, you should support early, aggressive, global regulation of the military applications of AI and drones. We made this mistake with nuclear. We leveled Hi…

> ... you should support early, aggressive, global regulation of the military applications of AI and drones. The history of global regulations on the military application of useful military technologies is not too impressive. The second a shooting war breaks out those rules will be forgotten, giving a huge head-start to anyone shady enough to ignore them wholesale. "AI" has been used in war since WW2. Strapping an IE…

> The history of global regulations on the military application of useful military technologies is not too impressive.

I don't think that's true at all. Since WWII we've been quite successful at reducing the use and proliferation of destructive military technologies through treaties. Certainly they don't work 100% of the time and they work in tandem with other forces but they've been a key part of the solution. See https://www.armscontrol.org/treaties

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#203

Post by pimmen »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

Working on weapons is ok, working on AI controlled weapons however is very dangerous. There are many unsolved ethical questions around this as in, who is responsible for the civilian casualties? Soldiers, pilots, sailors and commanding officers have rules of engagement so I ask, if the rules of engagement are coded and they glitch out, causing the murder of innocent people, who killed them? Is it the software engineering team?

What if the training data of the AI is skewed and furthers the violent oppression of a minority, who's responsible for that? Is it the data collectors? The software engineering team?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#204

Post by gaius »

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military

Sure, it’s fine but let’s call a spade a spade. Will Google update their global T&Cs to say “we are an American company serving American national interests and by using our services you agree to your data being used for that purpose”? Of course they won’t!

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#205

Post by sorokod »

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

helping their military

Do you mean helping in the sence FB helps us socialize and Google helps us search?

Helping without expectation of reward and incentivizing further business?

Not a pro bono work from the looks of it so profit is expected and good place in future competition with other contractors.

Perhaps I am nitpicking but "help" doesn't belong here.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#206

Post by sitkack »

tzzuop wrote: post #176
slg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

"We kill based on metadata" Phonenumbers are the target identifier.

It is even looser than that, activity profiles and a graph of agents that fit some shakes marker.

They literally don't know who they are killing, only people engaging in certain patterns of behavior.

The whole thing is just a vaguely statistical murder game.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#207

Post by lajhsdfkl »

blackrock wrote: post #98
strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

>We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil.

Working for the US military is not doing evil.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#208

Post by jacquesm »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons?

That your work will be used to kill people?

I'm kind of surprised that needs spelling out.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#209

Post by cheschire »

paganel wrote: post #142
rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action elsewhere only in preservation of that home population's peace.

Otherwise you have the crusades.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#210

Post by Cookingboy »

adamsea wrote: post #162
Cookingboy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of agree actually. Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future. But for the first time in history we have the tools to conduct intense warfare yet limit collateral damages and minimize cost in both human and material resources. The engineers who worked on precision strike weapons/smart bombs should be applauded instead of ostracized, in the past we'd just carpet…

> Humanity has always been at conflict with each other and will be for the foreseeable future. This could be used as an excuse for pretty much anything. > But for the first time in history we have the tools to conduct intense warfare yet limit collateral damages and minimize cost in both human and material resources. And yet the invasion of Iraq was a tragedy on a mass scale. Also, by this logic should we supply dict…

>Also by this logic should we applaud white collar crooks for innovating to commit robbery without physical violence?

All robberies are amoral, but not all warfare are such. Imagine if we could have precision struck Hitler with a laser guided bomb instead of having to carpet bomb Dresden.

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