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Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

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Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#201

Post by jacquesm »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #194
frockington wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8327185.stm - McDonalds pulled out of Iceland when it became to expensive. I wonder if the EU is going to price itself out of international technology. The affect would be less than ideal for a continent that preaches globalization

They pulled out of one of the smallest markets they could find, as a PR move to "show that they mean business". They had three restaurants in the entire country, and they pulled out because of the financial crisis, not because of taxes. That's hardly a sign that they would pull out of France, Germany or even Denmark. If by "international technology" you mean "blatant disregard for privacy", then good riddance. We don…

If McDonalds were to pull out of France there would be quite a few happy French people.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#202

Post by quantummkv »

juxncxrlos wrote: post #122
carrja99 wrote: post #115

Believe me folks, just delete facebook. I've been so much happier since I did.

What about memes pages? that's the only reason I keep my account. Also, I don't even see adds with and Ad-blocker. What are they going to try to sell me, a meme page subscription?

> What about memes pages? that's the only reason I keep my account.

Directly go to reddit or 4chan. Everything on facebook is 7 day old trash from reddit.

> Also, I don't even see adds with and Ad-blocker. What are they going to try to sell me, a meme page subscription?

You don't see it does not mean facebook does not track you and is not interested in selling stuff to you. It will just use your data to sell stuff to your family members.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#204

Post by lainga »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #184
lainga wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the GDPR only forbids denying access to users' data if they don't opt-in (Art. 15), and that's why Facebook has the options to either - accept ToS and use Facebook, or - deny ToS, download user data and delete account (under 'More options'). https://gdpr-info.eu/art-15-gdpr/

No, because this ToS thing is not actually a GDPR-compliant opt-in. It's a routine ToS update, with a few tracking things tacked at the end of it. Companies have always been able to deny users access if they don't accept a ToS, but clicking "I Accept" to the ToS shown in the screenshots is not a GDPR opt-in, and I cannot stress that enough. It is just a ToS update, which does not cover GDPR-compliant opt-in to tracki…

I originally was of your mindset as well (FB is in breach of compliance right now) but could not find any mention in the GDPR articles or recitals of "denial of access", "availability", etc. to back my views up. I would tend to agree with you if I could find a source for the stipulation in your 6th paragraph.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#205

Post by icebraining »

cortesoft wrote: post #174
icebraining wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't, though. There are other ways of making money. Like charging people. If people won't pay, well, worst things could befall the Union than Facebook leaving.

Why can't they charge you in data? If they present the deal to users as, "let us track your data, and in return you get to use facebook", is that not a trade that should be allowed? Isn't part of being able to 'be in control' of your data being allowed to sell it yourself? I think the key point is being clear about the trade. I think FORCING all websites to only be paid for by cash is bad; you should be able to trade…

Why can't they charge you in data?

Because "In the EU, personal information cannot be conceived as a mere economic asset: according to the case law of the European Court of Human Rights, the processing of personal data requires protection to ensure a person's enjoyment of the right to respect for private life and freedom of expression and association".

https://edps.europa.eu/sites/edp/files/publication/16-09-23_...

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#206

Post by BlackDeath3 »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #183
BlackDeath3 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd really not like to see a precedent set for a company entering a market, doing very well, and then being legally compelled to provide their product as some sort of legal right to an entire population. It might be a different story if said company is employing anti-competitive practices, but telling somebody that they're now legally obligated to serve a community because they're just too good at what th…

Oh, they're allowed to withdraw from the market, or decouple the privacy-invasive bits and find a way to make that work financially when users don't opt in to those. Nobody's forcing them to serve Europe if they insist on being this awful regarding mandatory tracking. They're free to allow space for a competitor to grow with a different attitude toward privacy.

Right, I'm not talking about withdrawing from the market, I'm talking about remaining in the market and being allowed, as a private company providing a private service, to freely associate.

I have no qualms with a competitor starting up to serve those denied by Facebook, but let's not muddy the water by equivocating a monopoly as a result of anti-competitive practices with one that forms simply because nobody wants to use anything else.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#207

Post by padthai »

frockington wrote: post #177
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FB is already in a shitstorm of bad PR. They have a very easy choice actually. Either abide by the rules if they want to service EU citizens, or GTFO. If they want to give up a couple hundred million users and hand them over to the GDPR-compliant competition, that's their choice. It would be monumentally stupid, though. FB needs EU users a lot more than EU users need FB, but they're trying very hard to spin the press…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8327185.stm - McDonalds pulled out of Iceland when it became to expensive. I wonder if the EU is going to price itself out of international technology. The affect would be less than ideal for a continent that preaches globalization

I am not sure if losing Facebook access counts as losing any kind of "technology". They cannot block the use of their FOSS code in Europe, isn't?

I am not sure the impact of closing their offices in Europe, though I am sure their the most interesting work is done in USA.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#208

Post by KozmoNau7 »

cabaalis wrote: post #165
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their choices are to either be GDPR-complient, or to completely bar all EU users from accessing Facebook. They cannot use tracking opt-in as a requirement for access.

American here; I just don't quite understand the premise. "Here is what you are giving us, and here is what you're getting in return" seems perfectly legit to me. If this interpretation of the law is correct, then the government is essentially saying the "in return" portion has to be eliminated. Which seems to be against the idea of trade.

One of the points of the GDPR is that you cannot make usage of your service contingent on giving up your privacy, unless your service very specifically requires the user to give up personal details in order to it to even function.

Strava is a good example, it does not work without GPS position, otherwise it cannot track your bike routes.

But Facebook does not require tracking to work. It does not require you to give them any personal details at all in order to work. It would work just fine even if everyone gave them fake emails, phone numbers, birth dates and even fake names. Thus they cannot make giving up privacy a requirement for using their service.

Besides that, this ToS update thing is absolutely not GDPR compliant. It does not list the things personal data will be used for. It hides the opt-out (to the face tracking) behind a dark pattern small "options" text and makes the default action opt-in. The list goes on.

This is simply an effort from FB to muddy the waters and sow doubt about opt-in and GDPR consequences.

They will have to provide proper GDPR opt-in screens come the 25th, or they will be fined for non-compliance.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#209

Post by kodablah »

chesimov wrote: post #52
zb123 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please take a moment and consider the implications of a nationalized company that tracks and records every thought of its users.

Do mean that a government is less trustworthy than an independendent corporation? That a corporation will better look after the interests of its citizens than a government?

> Do mean that a government is less trustworthy than an independendent corporation? That a corporation will better look after the interests of its citizens than a government?

Quite frequently, yes to both questions. Choice is key and many often feel more empowered to individually choose their company than their government.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#210

Post by icebraining »

ars wrote: post #160
icebraining wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't, though. There are other ways of making money. Like charging people. If people won't pay, well, worst things could befall the Union than Facebook leaving.

So what you are saying is that the EU should tell Facebook they can not make money by having ads, instead they need to make money by charging people? Is that typical, for the EU to get that involved in business decisions?

Well, first, ads are not the problem, tracking is. Also, they can make money from tracking, but they have to convince people to consent - more like a donation than a payment.

But yes, the EU does get involved in plenty of business decisions, just like governments everywhere. Usually when an industry is misbehaving and violating what is established (e.g. by the ECHR) as the rights of individuals.

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