90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies • Hacker News Board

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#201

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #53

nathan_long wrote: post #18

Oh, tech companies. If only there were a way to have conversations about, create, and transmit computer programs using some kind of long-distance network. Maybe we could break the data up into "packets". Just thinking out loud here. Then maybe everyone creating textual output for a living wouldn't have to transport their physical body to an office. We can dream.

>Then maybe everyone creating textual output for a living wouldn't have to transport their physical body to an office. Remote work hasn't taken off on a large scale because massively successful multi-billion dollar companies like Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/SpaceX were not built with remote workers . You get (relatively) minor companies touting it such as Automattic and Basecamp. Those smaller businesses haven't ach…

Red Hat and Canonical have achieved great success with a lot of remote workers. Heck pretty much the entirety of Linux and its ecosystem is remote.

All I hear is excuses and lack of willingness to work remotely, coped with lack of experience on how to make it work. From all sides.

The secret is following the procedure and working remotely even if the person is sitting next to you. (I don't mean get into a video chat if the person is sitting next to you) but:

- Procedures for idea exchange. You might talk to the person next to you or through a private PVT channel but make the ideas circulate.

- "Oh Slack/IRC/etc is distracting", do you know what else is distracting? My colleague next to me. Deal with those.

- Have good tools and follow procedures.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#202

Post by CM30 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

How does this compare to other popular cities?

Because it seems like it's about as common to have 90+ minute commutes over here in London too. I know people who came from Cambridge to London (and back) every day. People coming in from all over the country is pretty damn common here, and a large percentage of jobs I've had in software engineering have involved commutes of this length.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#203

Post by thirduncle » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

kolpa wrote: post #133

abritinthebay wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting $5k away every month when your take home pay is ~$8k a month? I assume you must live a VERY spartan life in the Bay. Basically pay your rent (which must be shared or very cheap for the Bay) and utilities and not do much else... I mean the average Bay area rent is more than the difference between your take home and your savings... edit: I'm using ADP's calculator, don't know why SmartAsset is different…

Take-home pay on $175K in CA is $10k/month, not $8k/month https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#RZ3V1... Sharing an apartment isn't "spartan", it's "normal"

Sharing an apartment isn't "spartan", it's "normal"

It may be "the new normal" in the Bay Area and other hyperstressed markets.

But it's not a living standard most people aspire to.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#204

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #159

jasode wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then maybe everyone creating textual output for a living wouldn't have to transport their physical body to an office. Remote work hasn't taken off on a large scale because massively successful multi-billion dollar companies like Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/SpaceX were not built with remote workers . You get (relatively) minor companies touting it such as Automattic and Basecamp. Those smaller businesses haven't ach…

> Remote work hasn't taken off on a large scale Which is fortunate for any US or European citizen who hopes to ever find employment again.

I'm not worried with the competition from abroad.

Culture is an issue (both from the contractor and the hiring sides), quality is another (in some places).

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#205

Post by nathan_long » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

kevinconaway wrote: post #158

Karunamon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any professional idea conveyance you can do in person that you can't do over a modest video conference connection?

Videoconferencing introduces friction in to the process. Those meetings must be planned and scheduled. There are no serendipitous hallway or kitchen conversations that flow easily when people are colocated There is also the friction of the software itself. Whiteboarding and freewheeling discussion is possible but it doesn’t have the same feel to it

I agree with all your points.

But consider the costs of that colocated time. 3 hours out of a worker's day is a lot - they could either do more work (boo) or be less stressed while they work (yay) without that commute. They'd also have fewer sick days (colds don't do TCP).

And the flip side of serendipitous conversations is distracting chatter. Which one affects productivity more?

Oh yeah, and office space costs a lot.

Remote work isn't all roses. But colocation is extremely expensive. The question is whether it's worth it.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#206

Post by test6554 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #64

sampo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it'll only stop when everyone says enough is enough and leaves Or, alternatively, when enough people start voting in politicians who would allow building lots of new homes in central locations. Manhattan has 3.9× the density of San Francisco. At Manhattan density, the City of San Francisco could house 2.5 million more people.

This is such a tiresome argument. Even if you could suddenly build all of the housing required to reduce prices on a short timescale, you'd have to solve the infrastructural problems that come with it (roads and transit), and convince developers to build into a massive loss (i.e. I am a developer, and you expect me to build and finance at today's costs, and pay for it with tomorrow's lower rents). Construction is a s…

I feel like if you were to build a skyscraper full of condos and apartments in downtown SF, you could get massive rents from it. Especially if you were the only one doing it. The only problem would be if everyone was doing it. I guess nobody has the money to buy a building in downtown SF, and anybody that owns a building in downtown SF doesn't want to tear it down and lose the cashflow for a whole year or so.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#207

Post by softawre » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

mLuby wrote: post #81

Kalium wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that I routinely see comments little different from this one. Just as routinely, companies choose to pay whole multiles times as much for engineers in-person instead of remote. Is it possible that we're missing something in this? And that there might be more to this than companies being unwilling to try remote workers? I know my own experiences with working remotely and having remote colleagues…

The benefits of remote work go disproportionately to workers, while the detriments seem to fall toward managers. Since it's managers deciding whether to hire remote or on-site, it's not that surprising that they act in their own interest and hire on-site, even if it's more expensive.

Would you be willing to "split the difference" on your commute if they allowed working at home? Instead of driving 2 hours a day, you'd work an extra hour every day?

Maybe if it was structured like this then it would be more win/win.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#208

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #2

It's time to start acknowledging that this is never going to be fixed. SB 827 died when homeowners protested fiercely, and it doesn't look like any proposed replacements are going to get traction either. People just have too much of their equity tied up in their homes. I hate it, but I can also see where they're coming from: if you had a savings account that accounted for most of your net wealth and was appreciating…

> someone wanted to cut it by a significant percentage

This is such a weird YIMBY theory on NIMBY motivation. Removing zoning restrictions would make their property values go up, not down.

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#209

Post by kolpa » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #138

nerfhammer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

75% of SF rental units are rent controlled.

And it's illegal to put new construction under rent control, thus incentivizing everyone with a rent-controlled apartment to become a bloody NIMBY.

NIMBY is the state of nature. Biased rent-control disincentivizes YIMBY

Re: 90-minute ‘super commutes’ more common as Bay Area housing shortage intensifies

#210

Post by seibelj » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

replicatorblog wrote: post #89

seibelj wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is because you chose to live extremely far away! There are plenty of places in Massachusetts that are closer and affordable, with decent schools. Every employee I've had who commuted from NH to Boston wound up pretty miserable because of the commute.

Serious question, what towns would you recommend. I don't deny I'm making a consumer choice, and said so in my comment. When I lived in Houston, I lived in a beautiful flat, a 20 minute walk from my office, and did so making the equivalent of $18/hr. I can't think of many places that'd be possible in the Boston area.

Are you trying to buy, rent, or no preference? Do you have a family? Do you need public schools? Do you want a yard or are you OK with condos? What price range are you thinking? I've in Mass my whole life, I'll try and give advice.