E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term • Hacker News Board

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#201

Post by thedragonline » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #135

ballenf wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing if they could have proven the case without this fabricated sting. Setting that up just to put the nails in the coffin of someone trying to do good seems pretty evil to me. Why the hell didn't the prosecutors just ring up the guy and say, "Hey, Microsoft is pretty pissed about these disks. If you don't [destroy them / remove their logo] we'll have to prosecute you." They have exactly that kind of discre…

Lundgren intended to sell the disks to computer refurbisher shops, this is a fact of the case. In theory, they could have found a shop he intended to sell the discs to and caught him in the act. The OP was lamenting the waste of resources that went into setting up a sting, I would imagine the time involved in the above mentioned scenario would be much greater. Lundgren wasn't setup, he wasn't coerced into doing somet…

Just curious - do you think this is a reasonable, proportional punishment?

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#202

Post by cptskippy » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #197

cptskippy wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft doesn't provide recovery/restore discs for download. Microsoft provides installation images that require and prompt for a valid product key and license to use the software (except Windows 10). Most OEM Restore/Recovery media do not prompt the user for a product key. They either have key/license hidden on a recovery partition on the machine, stored in the firmware, or hardcoded on the disc. It's unclear how…

Microsoft does provide recovery disks for download: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7 Only recently did you need to enter your license key to download them. Regardless, you need the license key to activate the OS, so these disks did not enable anyone to use the OS who did not already own a legitimate license. Microsoft's lost revenue came in the form of reduced sales of redundant licenses..

Your link is to installation media, not recovery/restore media. Microsoft does not make Recovery/Restore media.

Recovery/Restore discs are custom made by OEMs under license from Microsoft.

> Microsoft's lost revenue came in the form of reduced sales of redundant licenses..

If this were true then Microsoft would not have persuaded Federal prosecutors to lower their estimates. Originally prosecutors claimed the discs were valued at $299 a pop but Microsoft informed them that they sold refurbishers a license for $25 and that the discs were worth $20 at most.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#203

Post by defen » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #200

defen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with saying that this guy violated Microsoft's copyright by redistributing Windows binaries, but the punishment seems egregious. 15 months in jail and a $50,000 fine? At most he should have been fined the $3,400 and given a suspended sentence.

The convictions were actually for counterfeiting and copyright violation of the Dell and Windows Logos. Federal prosecutors initially tried to nail him with $299 per disc but Microsoft intervened and said they sold refurbishers a $25 license and at most his disc should be valued at $20. I think he should have been notified that his actions were potentially illegal and been given the option to just destroy the media.

> Microsoft intervened and said they sold refurbishers a $25 license and at most his disc should be valued at $20.

So the fake logos increased the value of the discs from $0.25 to $20 or $25? If he had labeled them "Eric's Restore Discs" he'd have been totally in the clear?

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#204

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

fuball63 wrote: post #114

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My first response was "he should have used linux", but I came to a similar conclusion as you. People are scared of linux, despite it now being almost as easy as Windows to install/use for typical usage. People aren't any more scared of Linux than they are of Windows. Not to go on yet another rant about all the problems with Linux as a desktop, but refusing to acknowledge that they exist and instead blaming users is…

My experience trying to set people up with Linux desktops is that even though the metaphors are the same, (like the desktop, start button, update manager, word processor), the unfamiliarity of the branding turns people off. Also, any errors that appeared (one time the package list got corrupted), they immediately go to "ah I'm not an expert this linux thing isn't for me", whereas if Windows showed a cryptic dialog er…

Generally people are hesitant with things they are unfamiliar with, it's true, but that's different than being afraid of it. They've learned to ignore Windows error messages, but they were probably once terrified of what they meant (usually nothing, which is why they're ignored). They aren't afraid of Linux, they just don't see any advantage to learning how to deal with it like they did for Windows, and that's because it doesn't really have any.

My thoughts on Linux litter my comment history. Some of it is inflammatory because it really bothers me that no one has built a half-decent alternative to Windows for my own needs, let alone those of all the various use cases out there, but people will insist that they have and then ignore the reasons you give them that they haven't.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#205

Post by cptskippy » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

thedragonline wrote: post #201

cptskippy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lundgren intended to sell the disks to computer refurbisher shops, this is a fact of the case. In theory, they could have found a shop he intended to sell the discs to and caught him in the act. The OP was lamenting the waste of resources that went into setting up a sting, I would imagine the time involved in the above mentioned scenario would be much greater. Lundgren wasn't setup, he wasn't coerced into doing somet…

Just curious - do you think this is a reasonable, proportional punishment?

Not at all. In this case he hadn't sold anything. They should have approached him and explained why he couldn't do what he was doing. Then gave him a remediation option, like destroying the discs, and dropping the matter.

I'm also not convinced something like this didn't happened. All of his exposing about Microsoft double dipping and the whole system being designed to scam people out of money makes me suspicious of his true motivations.

Microsoft stepped forward and corrected Federal Prosecutors who initially sought $299 per violation. They stated that they sold refurbishers licenses for $25 and the discs had at most a $20 value.

Lundgren was convicted of counterfeiting and copyright violation, not piracy and is even quoted as saying if he'd labeled the discs differently this would have never happened. I'm curious if that statement was based on what he ultimately got convicted of or something else?

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#206

Post by desireco42 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #91

24gttghh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope he appeals this.

Friend, the very headline, and HN post title, is "E-waste recycler Eric Lundgren loses appeal…". He did appeal it. He lost.

There must be something we can do.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#207

Post by csdreamer7 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

lucio wrote: post #78

Reading the court documents, the conclusion is that the guy is shady and the journalist and the newspaper are borderline lying. The correct headline is: "E-waste recycler loses appeal on 28,000 counterfeit windows installation disks, must serve prison term" >The sentencing judge determined that the appropriate infringement value was the value of the infringed discs to small registered refurbishers: $25. The court fou…

This is one of the better comments here.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#208

Post by riffic » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

naoru wrote: post #108

Controversial opinion: mr. Lundgren could tamper with disc content and ship any kind of malware with the OS to intercept sensible data. I'd never trust that kind of 'OEM' CD.

This isn't controversial at all - a basic tenet of computer security is to to install your bits from trusted media. If the install media is a burned cd of a supposed windows ISO, it's not as trustworthy as the $25 replacement media shipped out by the original vendor.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#209

Post by usaphp » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #151

usaphp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your examples actually use intellectual property of McDonald’s, ram or milk products. It’s like selling your own burgers with less calories and calling them Big Macs and selling them next door from McDonald’s store. You can’t do that according to law

I don't see your point. You can't use the disks without already possessing a license to use the disks. Without a license, the disks are useless - unless you buy a license. It's not like he was giving people keygens and cracks. He was just giving them the disc, burned from an ISO available for free on Microsoft's website, for the price of the blank medium used - and then giving people the information they needed to us…

He was taking the restore media, burning it onto discs _with official Microsoft and Dell logos on them_ and then _selling them to computer refurbishers who would then include them with PCs they were selling._ In other words, people were buying PCs with these counterfeit restore discs passed off as actual Dell/Microsoft product.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#210

Post by cptskippy » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

defen wrote: post #203

cptskippy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convictions were actually for counterfeiting and copyright violation of the Dell and Windows Logos. Federal prosecutors initially tried to nail him with $299 per disc but Microsoft intervened and said they sold refurbishers a $25 license and at most his disc should be valued at $20. I think he should have been notified that his actions were potentially illegal and been given the option to just destroy the media.

> Microsoft intervened and said they sold refurbishers a $25 license and at most his disc should be valued at $20. So the fake logos increased the value of the discs from $0.25 to $20 or $25? If he had labeled them "Eric's Restore Discs" he'd have been totally in the clear?

There's a quote from Lundgren stating as much. I don't know if that's his assessment taken from the 2 convictions or something more.

It would be curious to find out. I've not read anything to indicate that Microsoft would have opposed that so an official statement from them would be nice.

The fact that Microsoft sells refurbishers licenses for $25 for "unlicensed hardware" seems to acknowledge that refurbished computers can retain their license.

That being said, I would be surprised if Microsoft allowed distribution of recovery media from an unlicensed sources regardless of the label.