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Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

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Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#201

Post by vvanders »

scruple wrote: post #185
s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Those places are basically unicorns, as far as I can tell. I have my own anecdotes, of course, and they oscillate between "we cared about code quality" and "we didn't have time." My experiences and the conversations I've had with others lead me to the conclusion that: almost all of us have deadlines that we didn't really help set, that we're always struggling to meet those deadlines, and that there is a stupid amount…

I've also seen the opposite happen as well where endless feedback and getting the "perfect" architecture has almost sunk a few teams. If you take too long building the ivory tower then the market may move past you.

The thing I care about is if it's a deliberate decision made with consideration of the rest of the business of if it's driven by fear/reactionary/habit.

The former usually means that you'll try and budget in time after the crisis to fix it up, the latter tends to spiral into a complete mess that no one wants to touch after a certain amount of time has passed.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#202

Post by therealdrag0 »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #156
reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Not sure why there's a hard-no on working overtime. Not everyone finds value or fulfillment in the same way or has the same goals.

My cousin just went from being an intern at Tesla to a FTE. This group change entailed going from 11-12 hour days to 9-10 hour days. It's crazy and maybe not for everyone but he's happy there.

I work at a more chill company, but sometimes there's something I want to do on the company code base that is not asked for by any stakeholders. I'm happy to occasionally put in an extra 10% to do something that scratches my own itch. I don't see much difference between this and someone who goes home and works in their garden or plays with Arduino or tinkers on an old car.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#203

Post by iamcasen »

reaperducer wrote: post #141
ManlyBread wrote: post #115

I've tried this approach in the past and and it has made me very bitter. Eventually I realized that the company I worked for enforced no accountability for bad code, so I would often open the solution later and found a pile of ugly hacks or other mess. Code reviews? Refactoring? "We don't have time and no one is going to pay for it". Eventually you come to a conclusion that if no one cares then why should you? If any…

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

That's all well and good, but what if delivering good code actually necessitates a pretty large shift in the codebase? Usually that requires buy-in from teammates because it will take substantially longer.

Almost always the answer will be no. So you're forced in a way to ship bad code.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#204

Post by drvdevd »

nightski wrote: post #166
reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

A contrary opinion based on experience - instead of focusing so much on how bad the code is take the time to get to know your coworkers better. Talk with your manager and the business leaders about the business. Learn more about the business you are in and how your code makes an impact to that business. At the end of the day the goal is not to produce clean code. It's to make your company successful. I'm not saying c…

Especially in a startup, but obviously in established companies as well, this will give you an idea of where it’s all headed.

If you’re in a place that’s reliant on good code (and good execution strategies) to exist, and the other people don’t or won’t or can’t really grasp the magnitude of what good code means to the company - leave.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#205

Post by blechinger »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #202
s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Not sure why there's a hard-no on working overtime. Not everyone finds value or fulfillment in the same way or has the same goals. My cousin just went from being an intern at Tesla to a FTE. This group change entailed going from 11-12 hour days to 9-10 hour days. It's crazy and maybe not for everyone but he's happy there. I work at a more chill company, but sometimes there's something I want to do on the company code…

I get where you're coming from. I just did this the other day (worked through the night on something for someone else over the weekend) but I may not have if I knew someone was going to come behind me and blow it away.

Maybe what I learned from it alone would be worth the effort. Tough to say.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#206

Post by s73v3r_ »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #202
s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Not sure why there's a hard-no on working overtime. Not everyone finds value or fulfillment in the same way or has the same goals. My cousin just went from being an intern at Tesla to a FTE. This group change entailed going from 11-12 hour days to 9-10 hour days. It's crazy and maybe not for everyone but he's happy there. I work at a more chill company, but sometimes there's something I want to do on the company code…

If they clearly don't care, then working overtime is not going to change that, and it's just going to make things much more depressing.

This is on top of the "never work for free" rule. All that does is bring down the value and respect of our entire industry.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#207

Post by s73v3r_ »

blechinger wrote: post #205
therealdrag0 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why there's a hard-no on working overtime. Not everyone finds value or fulfillment in the same way or has the same goals. My cousin just went from being an intern at Tesla to a FTE. This group change entailed going from 11-12 hour days to 9-10 hour days. It's crazy and maybe not for everyone but he's happy there. I work at a more chill company, but sometimes there's something I want to do on the company code…

I get where you're coming from. I just did this the other day (worked through the night on something for someone else over the weekend) but I may not have if I knew someone was going to come behind me and blow it away. Maybe what I learned from it alone would be worth the effort. Tough to say.

All that work would still be there in the morning, or on Monday. And you'd be rested up, and far less likely to make mistakes.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#209

Post by adrianratnapala »

nightski wrote: post #166
reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

A contrary opinion based on experience - instead of focusing so much on how bad the code is take the time to get to know your coworkers better. Talk with your manager and the business leaders about the business. Learn more about the business you are in and how your code makes an impact to that business. At the end of the day the goal is not to produce clean code. It's to make your company successful. I'm not saying c…

Yes it is good to understand people and the business, but you are also hinting that much of the bad code around the place is some kind of big-picture smart optimum of technical debt. vs. development velocity.

But this is unlikely if you stop to think about how humans behave. Who in an organisation has an incentive to find such an optimum? Shareholders and the board maybe; but they can only drive things by rewarding and punishing middle-level individuals. And they can only reward impact that they can see. Thus the incentives are to create visible impact which can be spun as a net gain. If that creates technical debt, then that is somebody else's problem.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#210

Post by AnimalMuppet »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #202
s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Not sure why there's a hard-no on working overtime. Not everyone finds value or fulfillment in the same way or has the same goals. My cousin just went from being an intern at Tesla to a FTE. This group change entailed going from 11-12 hour days to 9-10 hour days. It's crazy and maybe not for everyone but he's happy there. I work at a more chill company, but sometimes there's something I want to do on the company code…

Working overtime? It happens. I accept it as part of the job, as long as it's rare.

Working overtime to clean up other peoples' mess that nobody else cares about cleaning up? Hard no.

If it floats your boat, if it's a hobby to you, if you want to spend your free time on it, then sure, knock yourself out. Have fun. Feeling like you have to? No.

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