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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#201

Post by sametmax »

bassman9000 wrote: post #191
Roritharr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

We should treasure it while it lasts, before PC culture silences him. And before downvoting, recall how many threads regarding Linus abusive behavior (sic) we've had.

Well, if the Linux Kernel would have been a democracy, it would not have the aspect it has today.

It's a sad thing to say about the state of the human specie.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#202

Post by shakna »

andreasley wrote: post #186
shakna wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're hitting a cultural barrier. In my country, if someone brought me something terrible, in a professional environment, I would tell them it's bullshit, and go try again. And that would be fine and dandy, and expected. (I'd expect the same treatment of myself. And it has happened.) I get the feeling, that in the US, you can't criticise. You have to use some political language to say you like it, whilst mea…

Question is, is it constructive? Does ranting really yield better results than just stating the facts (both short term for fixing the problem and long term for working together)? It might work for Linus on the LKML, but it certainly doesn't for everyone and in all circumstances.

> It might work for Linus on the LKML, but it certainly doesn't for everyone and in all circumstances.

Exactly, it's cultural.

And, I wouldn't call it ranting. If you look at Linus' famous examples of this, he may first call it bullshit (calling it as it is), and then he goes on to explain why it is, and usually also explains how to polish the turd into what it should have been.

It certainly works in my experience, having been on both ends of this sort of communication.

It tells you that your quality has fallen well and truly below the expected level of output.

But it isn't something held against you either. Because in these same cultures, it is okay to make a mistake, even costly ones. Because they make you better.

I've shown you that what you made is crap, and why it is crap. So now I know that you know that sort of thing is crap, and will strive to make something better. And you also know I won't turn around tomorrow and remind you of it, because you're passed it. Probably not even in jest.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#203

Post by nielsabel »

bassman9000 wrote: post #191
Roritharr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

We should treasure it while it lasts, before PC culture silences him. And before downvoting, recall how many threads regarding Linus abusive behavior (sic) we've had.

> before PC culture silences him

Damn you, Wintel!

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#204

Post by tome »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #131
mrmondo wrote: post #8

I think we should count ourselves lucky we have someone so good at spotting bullsh*t like this - and isn’t afraid to call it out as they sees it. Intel & friends have absolutely disgusted me lately, it could be all to easy to settle for less based on their standards, but let’s not let them set the standard - they’ve shown they can’t be trusted with quality and when they fail - they can’t be trusted to be transparent…

From what I gather, some of this is cultural. His country of origin is just generally blunt and direct about things. That directness is generally associated with multicultural environments where subtler context-dependent communication simply does not work. Some of the quotes I am seeing here from him are things I think are unnecessarily harsh, but most are not. Discussions about something he has said or written seem…

I'm not sure you replied to the correct post since it didn't really seem to be about Linus's style.

Anyway, this argument comes up again and again. Regardless of the style in his country and language or origin he is writing in English, in public, for an international audience. One expects a different sort of tone.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#205

Post by pm »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #190
dschuetz wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that's pretty scary. Are the rest of heavy weight kernel code maintainers too stupid for than then? If it weren't for Linus' hard judgement? Would we then buying badly engineered products without ever questioning?

Linus, like Jobs, is a bully. He lives under the sword. The moment he stops being right, everyone will swiftly turn against them. What separates them is that they're almost never wrong. Not when they pull out "this is garbage" card. This is a difficult ability to learn. You need to stay quiet most of the time, then be a complete asshole when it's important. I really hate that aspect of our industry. But that's just h…

Jobs was a bully who got the big picture right, but often got the details wrong; folklore.org has plenty of stories about people going round Jobs to get shit done.

Linus is abrasive, but he usually has a good explanation for why the target of his ire is a moron, e.g. everytime some coder without Linus’ experience suggests converting the kernel codebase to C++.

Let’s be honest, most developers are average at best, and knowledge is our status play. Scoring points against Linus’ decisions are one way to get you noticed, which makes him a target. If I had to deal with that shit everyday, I would do my best to discourage point scorers by putting them in their place as well.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#206

Post by Yaggo »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #131
mrmondo wrote: post #8

I think we should count ourselves lucky we have someone so good at spotting bullsh*t like this - and isn’t afraid to call it out as they sees it. Intel & friends have absolutely disgusted me lately, it could be all to easy to settle for less based on their standards, but let’s not let them set the standard - they’ve shown they can’t be trusted with quality and when they fail - they can’t be trusted to be transparent…

From what I gather, some of this is cultural. His country of origin is just generally blunt and direct about things. That directness is generally associated with multicultural environments where subtler context-dependent communication simply does not work. Some of the quotes I am seeing here from him are things I think are unnecessarily harsh, but most are not. Discussions about something he has said or written seem…

> From what I gather, some of this is cultural. His country of origin is just generally blunt and direct about things.

Maybe he just is what he is. The differences between individuals are greater than differences between cultures. I'm from Finland and I can assure you that Linus' style of communication is not a norm here.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#207

Post by oblio »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #167
dschuetz wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that's pretty scary. Are the rest of heavy weight kernel code maintainers too stupid for than then? If it weren't for Linus' hard judgement? Would we then buying badly engineered products without ever questioning?

Courage is in shorter supply than genius.

I think I agree with sillysaurus3, it's the other way around.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#208

Post by yeukhon »

ealexhudson wrote: post #108
smcleod wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not the only one, he may be brash at times but god damn we need him and maybe we need his brash anti-bullshit meter too.

Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. All Linus needs to do is say something like "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do", rather than "They do literally insane things. They do things that do not make sense". The latter is not a technical argument, and it doesn't provide accuracy or clarity about next steps. "So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Som…

I do agree his language and tone can be very painful to read. Imagine getting called a moron in front of the whole world, when you could have private conversation first with a smaller group.

When I read his reply, I could feel the pain. I imagined I would reply back to him and say "well fuck you too." When I finished reading the email, regardless of who is more right or more wrong, I can understand and feel his frustration. I would absolutely go mad if someone messes with something I care about, and then have the guts to do fact checks.

But I still think there is room to offer an olive branch, honestly. But given how busy he is, and how many shitty patches they get, I can understand his frustration.

That being said, it almost seems like no one other than him, can do a better job in keeping up with the quality if he has to be the one yelling all the time. When Linus is no longer involved (for any reasons), can Linux kernel project continues to have quality code?

A couple years ago Linus shared his views on insult: respect should be earned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY

Worth watching.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#209

Post by poooogles »

ealexhudson wrote: post #175
icelancer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, esp…

I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against tha…

>The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't.

I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard.

That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#210

Post by rootlocus »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #190
dschuetz wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that's pretty scary. Are the rest of heavy weight kernel code maintainers too stupid for than then? If it weren't for Linus' hard judgement? Would we then buying badly engineered products without ever questioning?

Linus, like Jobs, is a bully. He lives under the sword. The moment he stops being right, everyone will swiftly turn against them. What separates them is that they're almost never wrong. Not when they pull out "this is garbage" card. This is a difficult ability to learn. You need to stay quiet most of the time, then be a complete asshole when it's important. I really hate that aspect of our industry. But that's just h…

> This is a difficult ability to learn. You need to stay quiet most of the time, then be a complete asshole when it's important.

I hope you aren't under the impression that Linus stays quietly and waits for the perfect victim.

> (I'm sure whoever came up with the current design isn't too happy about Linus calling it garbage, but they'll just have to deal with it.)

Or maybe whoever came up with the design was aware it was garbage from inception, there's no need to pity them gratuitously.

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