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SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

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Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#201

Post by ars »

tptacek wrote: post #183
ars wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they are hurting tons of people in the US in exchange for strategy. That's simply not right. And of all issues DACA? It's important to some people, but as a national topic it's pretty minor. > What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? Realize they are weak and accept it. Then take the offer they were given and do the best they can. But don't hurt unrelated people in the US to try to…

As a national issue, deporting people who should by rights be citizens and have known no other country than ours, many of whom are parents of actual American citizens, children, citizens, who might not even know Spanish, that's a minor issue?

> that's a minor issue?

Compared to a government shutdown? Yes, very much a minor issue.

Like I said, important in it's own right, but not in comparison to this.

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#202

Post by mikeash »

ars wrote: post #200
mikeash wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You used the present tense in your initial reply.

So? The survey is older than the present. The comments I've seen online and in person show that people actually do support it, which will only increase once higher paychecks arrive. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

Are you? I don’t think the popularity of the tax cut is terribly relevant, although its unpopularity makes this cock-up worse. You felt it was worth correcting, but you can’t back it up with anything more than anecdotes or guesswork. So what’s the point of arguing?

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#203

Post by FireBeyond »

Clanan wrote: post #161
jernfrost wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clanan, to my knowledge this is ALL Trump and the republican's fault. Until 3 weeks ago they could have passed anything they wanted. It is just because they wasted time and Trump sabotaged everything the republicans came up with that so much time passed that they reached a stage where a 60 senate vote was needed. You can't blame this on democrats when republicans could have handled this exclusively themselves and had…

Citations are far more helpful than ranting. If you want a productive conversation, you should provide some. Democratic leaders have made the current budget/CR about DACA, which was not relevant to it. (Ironic because they're in favor of everything in the CR, but they voted against it anyway!) Here's House minority leader Pelosi promising to block any funding that does not include DACA [0]. Yes, the Trump admin could…

How is it in your world view that the Democrats get the blame for this but not the "no" voting Republicans, of which there were a significant number?

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#204

Post by Clanan »

Retric wrote: post #198
Clanan wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citations are far more helpful than ranting. If you want a productive conversation, you should provide some. Democratic leaders have made the current budget/CR about DACA, which was not relevant to it. (Ironic because they're in favor of everything in the CR, but they voted against it anyway!) Here's House minority leader Pelosi promising to block any funding that does not include DACA [0]. Yes, the Trump admin could…

Government is only funded through Feb. 8 and this reauthorizes the Children’s Health Insurance Program for six years. So, they got something they wanted all for keeping the government operating for another 2.5 weeks. I would call it a solid democrat win. Also republicans can pass 1 bill per year without the risk of filibuster and they used/wasted it on their tax bill. Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on…

You're projecting your politics onto the events. The CR already contained CHIP, and the majority already promised a debate on DACA/immigration back in December. The Democrat leadership promised a shutdown if DACA was not added to the budget/CR. They shutdown, but then reversed almost immediately without DACA being added. No idea how that can be labeled a "solid democrat win" without some severe rationalization.

> Thus, any government shutdown is arguably 100% on them.

Under this logic, all outcomes can be blamed on the majority party in all situations, because tool X was used on Y instead of Z. In a theoretical situation where a supermajority vote fails 59-41, isn't it more logical to blame the failure on the 41 opponents rather than the 59 proponents?

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#205

Post by FireBeyond »

ars wrote: post #173
kasey_junk wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is impossible for this not to be a political topic and I probably shouldn’t be even discussing it here, but whatever. What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? They weren’t allowed to see the tax bill. That’s what happens when something has the 51 republicans and it can’t be filibustered in the current environment. Further, the republicans haven’t even brought a bill forward to be filib…

Except they are hurting tons of people in the US in exchange for strategy. That's simply not right. And of all issues DACA? It's important to some people, but as a national topic it's pretty minor. > What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? Realize they are weak and accept it. Then take the offer they were given and do the best they can. But don't hurt unrelated people in the US to try to…

Oh, just cave in, and be walked all over?

Not that you're being biased, at all.

You know, like I'm sure you wanted the Republicans to do under Cruz in 2013?

Shame on the Democrats for opposing the Republican party, as the Republican party did the last eight years. They should just "realize they're weak and accept it [and do what they're told]".

The sad thing about this is that you most likely you think your perspective is eminently objective and unbiased.

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#206

Post by Clanan »

FireBeyond wrote: post #203
Clanan wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citations are far more helpful than ranting. If you want a productive conversation, you should provide some. Democratic leaders have made the current budget/CR about DACA, which was not relevant to it. (Ironic because they're in favor of everything in the CR, but they voted against it anyway!) Here's House minority leader Pelosi promising to block any funding that does not include DACA [0]. Yes, the Trump admin could…

How is it in your world view that the Democrats get the blame for this but not the "no" voting Republicans, of which there were a significant number?

Sure, blame them too. If a bill fails, blame everyone who voted against it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Of course, then you have a situation where politicians (on both sides) will grandstand if the outcome is already decided. For example, if a CR is guaranteed to fail, a moderate Republican will vote against it to appease his base. But if his was the deciding vote, he would vote to pass it to appease his party. Politics...

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#207

Post by FireBeyond »

Clanan wrote: post #206
FireBeyond wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it in your world view that the Democrats get the blame for this but not the "no" voting Republicans, of which there were a significant number?

Sure, blame them too. If a bill fails, blame everyone who voted against it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Of course, then you have a situation where politicians (on both sides) will grandstand if the outcome is already decided. For example, if a CR is guaranteed to fail, a moderate Republican will vote against it to appease his base. But if his was the deciding vote, he would vote to pass it to appease his party.…

> Sure, blame them too.

You say, now. After mentioning how Democrats are to blame at least eight separate times in this thread, and mentioning how Republicans are also to blame... none, until this comment.

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#208

Post by Clanan »

tptacek wrote: post #183
ars wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they are hurting tons of people in the US in exchange for strategy. That's simply not right. And of all issues DACA? It's important to some people, but as a national topic it's pretty minor. > What would be the reasonable thing for the democrats to do right now? Realize they are weak and accept it. Then take the offer they were given and do the best they can. But don't hurt unrelated people in the US to try to…

As a national issue, deporting people who should by rights be citizens and have known no other country than ours, many of whom are parents of actual American citizens, children, citizens, who might not even know Spanish, that's a minor issue?

In comparative terms it's minor: 35 million enrolled in CHIP [0] (shutdown) vs. 3.5 million DACA. Hopefully all would agree that neither is minor from a moral standpoint.

[0] https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/program-information/medica...

Re: SpaceX can't test fire its Falcon Heavy rocket due to the government shutdown

#209

Post by KhanMahGretsch »

jmadsen wrote: post #54
lambda wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to understand about the US is that it is actually a federation of states. Much of the day-to-day work happens at the state or local level, not at the federal level. Police, fire departments, emergency first responders mostly employed at that level, and when the federal government is involved, a lot of it is in doing some coordination between states, setting standards, funding for various programs, and so on…

"Of course, this inefficiency plays well into the politics of one of the parties, who hold a religious belief that private enterprise is always more efficient than government" Which is beyond ironic to anyone who's worked in the corporate world, but I guess that's for another thread. This idea they have that private enterprise naturally evolves toward the most efficient system is laughable.

>This idea they have that private enterprise naturally evolves toward the most efficient system is laughable.

This is a straw-man, nobody claims that private enterprises are necessarily more efficient than government organisations. What is claimed, however, is that a free-market system invariably leads to better processes and products, compared to a government monopoly, because there is a competitive advantage in optimising overheads.

To suggest that government organisations are "often" or even "occasionally" more efficient than private organisations is quite chuckle-worthy.

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