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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign. A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

That is an intersection that needs traffic lights. And if it's just twice a day, default the less used direction to red and have it switch to green only if a car is actually waiting. As a european 4 way stops seem really inefficient to me. If the intersection isn't that busy a 2 way stop (or no stop at all) favouring the more frequently used road is the obvious choice. If it's a busy 4 way stop however, can you reall…

There often isn't a "more frequently used road". If there were, it would probably be a 2-way stop.

Figuring out who goes next is not remotely as difficult as you have made it out to be. Where I used to live, I would go through two four-way stops twice each day during peak traffic. There are generally two scenarios when you approach the intersection. In light traffic, you get to the intersection and nobody else is waiting to cross, or it is obvious who got there first. In moderate traffic, you will queue up behind one or possibly two cars. Once you get to the front of the queue, you wait for the cars on your left and right that are already at the front of the queue, and then you go. This is simple because each direction of traffic alternates, and it is reasonably fast because the queues are very short.

The real worst case scenario is that during light traffic four cars approach simultaneously, but not only is this extremely rare, but it is not really even a problem when it happens.

In my personal experience I have had far, far more problems in US cities on two-way stops when I am bicycling and a driver incorrectly yields when they have right of way.

I suspect that most Americans feel the same way about roundabouts that, say, Germans feel about 4-way stops. But please remember that roundabouts require more land and much more capital investment. The tradeoffs in the US are different.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#202
post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah.

There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#203
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

There's a 4-way give way junction here [1]. That's the closest you will get in the UK. It means give way to anything that is in the junction before you are, but the actual effect is for cyclists to frequently be aggressively hooted at and nearly run over by cars. [1] https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2190575,0.1178374,105m/dat...

Interesting construction. This wouldn't be legal in Nordics, there can be no direction in give way signs indicated, and there can be no 4-way give way junctions.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#204
post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

The drivers shouldn't be punished for bad design of the road. A separate bike road should be constructed.

What's the punishment exactly? Being forced to slow down at a junction where you don't have right of way to ensure you give right of way to the road traffic you failed to see?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#205
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents', where a lorry turning right at a junction hits a cyclists because they are in their blind spot. This obviously happens exclusively in cities. The media has made a big deal about how tragic it is for the cyclists - which it is, but much less about how tragic it is for the driver. Remember, it's not like drivers want t…

Unfortunately, the cycling organizations don't really like to admit that most right turn accidents happen because cyclists don't seem to understand that motor vehicles have blind spots, and big motor vehicles have bigger blind spots. As someone who regularly drives, bikes, walks and uses public transport in Copenhagen, it is blatantly obvious that people just don't know how to handle right turns involving both cars a…

"when the light turns green, it becomes almost impossible for the driver to turn right, because of the bikes already there, as well as the additional bikes coming from behind, completely ignoring the right blinker on the car."

Isn't that how it should be ? I'm not in DK, but in LV traffic laws in such a situation they should ignore the blinker, the driver must wait and turn right only after everyone going straight e.g. those bicycles and also pedestrians crossing the road he's turning to; since the vehicle turning must yield to everyone else.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For cyclists, roundabouts aren't that much better unless we're given separate lanes. Motorists still tend to blow through roundabouts at speed if they can't see anything coming. From personal experience you can easily navigate a roundabout at 35+ mph.

I've been curious as to why American roundabouts include unnecessary vegetation or a hill in the middle? Why obscure oncoming traffic?

If it's a roundabout, the traffic across the roundabout is not actually oncoming, it's the traffic approaching from your left around the roundabout that you need to watch out for.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you just conveniently omitting the fact that roundabouts are more expensive and require more land, which may already be used by something else?

That is why mini-roundabouts were invented.

America doesn't really have those... they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe. I can't imagine it not being dangerous.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#208
post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

Separation is not the issue here, the separated lanes have to cross just as well. They are only less likely to have cars run over cyclists, because now the guy with the perfectly unobstructed view is forced to always yield to the guy who is driving around huge, dangerous blind spots. On-demand lights are even worse, now the guy who isn't a danger to others is legally obliged to preventive defer to those who are even if nobody is there, that's like saluting the portrait of the dictator.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#209
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The main type of accident involving cyclists in Denmark are so called 'right turn accidents', where a lorry turning right at a junction hits a cyclists because they are in their blind spot. This obviously happens exclusively in cities. The media has made a big deal about how tragic it is for the cyclists - which it is, but much less about how tragic it is for the driver. Remember, it's not like drivers want t…

Unfortunately, the cycling organizations don't really like to admit that most right turn accidents happen because cyclists don't seem to understand that motor vehicles have blind spots, and big motor vehicles have bigger blind spots. As someone who regularly drives, bikes, walks and uses public transport in Copenhagen, it is blatantly obvious that people just don't know how to handle right turns involving both cars a…

This could not apply to Copenhagen and Denmark but I guess that in most other countries cyclists are also car drivers and spend more time in their car than on their bicycle. However there are many car drivers that don't have a bicycle or seldom use it, maybe because they are scared by cars. If the driver is not a cyclist it's difficult to understand what's going on. I suggest that to get a license one should also get some practice in the traffic as a cyclist, to remember what not to do with a car.

About your mitigation strategy: that would solve the problem but unfortunately the cyclist won't stop behind the car. The cyclist would turn left to overtake the stopped car. I don't like to do that because it puts me in the middle of the road or to the right of another car. It also requires some space to maneuver and a car could be arriving from behind me and close the gap.

Usually stopped cars don't hit cyclists (but watch out for doors). I look at the traffic light and refrain from overtaking the car (both on the left and on the right) if it's about to turn green.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#210
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, a stop sign would solve this, wouldn’t it? Simplist & cheapest solution first. The point about the geometry is that it doesn’t matter at which point the driver can see over the hill and brush; they still won’t see the cyclist.

The UK hates stop signs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom

Most UK cities will have one single stop sign somewhere, just so that the driving lessons can go past one.
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