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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#201

Post by jiiririri828282 »

leohutson wrote: post #26
georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

It's illogical to make value judgements about cultures, there is no objective way to do it. What makes one culture "better" than another? Survival? Virality? Honor? Piousness? Lawfulness? Every culture values these things differently. Calling it politically correct shows your own failing to comprehend something outside of your own cultural frame of reference. Notably I could make the same point about morality as the…

IMO that you think humans are entitled to get “what they want” shows you’ve been confused by certain voices in your culture

If no frameworks are viable, why should “getting what you want” be a concern of mine?

If there’s no morality, why not just shove you into traffic and be done with your desire to get what you want? I have no need for the selfish nonsense that are your needs!

Capitalism is fake! Socialism is a ruse! None of these things we can see and read and consider exist!

Go smelt your own metal for a toaster then. Not up to anyone else. I am not finding one reason why I should concern myself with “leohutson”

On the one hand you accept the absence of physical evidence of higher powers; empiricism! but ignore a whole lot of biology

We appear to have an innate morality against killing each other. That’s why we believe human morality is a thing to be considered

Morality is what lets the species scale without destroying itself.

We each have our own minds and generally speaking find value in acknowledging this

The universe begets physics, chemistry, biology, humans, and their creations.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#202

Post by usrusr »

Nomentatus wrote: post #199
usrusr wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optimization to a local maximum pitfall, it is very much acknowledged in the article that the systems criticised make sense to those inside.

But to the individual, it's not a local maximum; they are trapped in a first mover's dilemma (later called Nash Equilibrium), and everybody simultaneously moving to very different norms is statistically unlikely.

That only addresses the depth of the hole (even deeper), not the fact that the hole is a trap.

The whole discussion here was surprisingly devoid of how to get out (individually or as a society) and so was the article. From a solution-oriented crowd such as this I take that as a sign that it is indeed difficult. Even acknowledging it as a problem seems to be a struggle with an open outcome.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#203

Post by sullyj3 »

leohutson wrote: post #49
sullyj3 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're gesturing at is that it's illogical to make value judgements, period, without a standard that your object of interest is being judged against. This fact, which is blatantly obvious once pointed out, is obscured by the shortcomings of our language. Usually the standard is implicit, but obvious from context, for instance if we were talking about racing, we could say that a Mclaren is better than a Volkwagen…

> For instance, by the standard of the general wellbeing of African Americans, it's manifestly obvious that modern American culture is superior to American culture of the 1850s. But it might be hard to convince a 1850s white American to adopt that standard. It's tautological to say that as by definition 1850s white Americans culture is extremely distasteful to a modern HN commenter. Any culture that isn't similar you…

> Any culture that isn't similar your culture is by definition inferior when held to your cultural standards, so there is no reason to do so.

Ok, so, suppose we met a culture that thought it was a good thing to burn children alive as sacrifices to Moloch. Would you say, "Hey let them do their thing, all cultural practices are equally valid", or would you say "I'm going to try to prevent this from happening, even though my belief that the practice is wrong is due to my particular cultural upbringing"?

I'm assuming the second one. So doesn't that constitute an act of holding another culture to your own cultural standards? And here, the point is to save lives.

Again, to reiterate, just because different cultures value different things, and the question of which value system is "correct" is not really coherent, does not prevent me from condemning practices from within my own cultural framework, and having good reasons to do so.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#204

Post by QAPereo »

flukus wrote: post #200
QAPereo wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah those famous “individual choices” which are perfectly spherical, and in a vacuum. /s

I think you missed the point, Scandinavian countries are closer to that perfect sphere in a vacuum, they are much more free of external pressures than those in poorer countries. They make their choices on what will make them happiest and not on some harsh economic realities.

...by eschewing individuality, being small and having the luck to have petro money. How is that “free from influence” when you’re talking about the people who invented Jante law?!

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#205

Post by Nomentatus »

usrusr wrote: post #202
Nomentatus wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to the individual, it's not a local maximum; they are trapped in a first mover's dilemma (later called Nash Equilibrium), and everybody simultaneously moving to very different norms is statistically unlikely.

That only addresses the depth of the hole (even deeper), not the fact that the hole is a trap. The whole discussion here was surprisingly devoid of how to get out (individually or as a society) and so was the article. From a solution-oriented crowd such as this I take that as a sign that it is indeed difficult. Even acknowledging it as a problem seems to be a struggle with an open outcome.

Again, let's please be precise, not return to imprecision. For the individual, it is a local maximum. For the population, it isn't, it's a trap/local maximum. However moving whole groups to new behavior is insanely tough for a simple reason: culture-retainment (cognitive herding) is high in the list of what humans do best, for good reason. Ironically perhaps, the history of colonization provides the best evidence of how to initiate change. Building a new prestigious culture within the old one does work. Maybe not in a delightful direction, but it has been demonstrated to be effective.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#206

Post by ramy_d »

eric-hu wrote: post #194
ramy_d wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually i would argue the opposite. Not to the extent of genocide but the lid has really blown on Hollywood's sexual harassment problem (read: rape culture). Let's not forget Uber's contribution there and of course the whole gamer gate scandal which is still fresh in the minds of the people involved in the community. Racism, classism, and authoritarianism's roaring 2017 comeback. Then there's Madoff, Exon (classic)…

Oh but I didn't say our society's hands are clean. My money simply goes to the odds of what "cultures" most in ours might find reprehensible. And as for those in our society who do those things? My money is on most people in the home turf saying that's not their culture, that these are bad eggs.

This is a form of Nimby: "well I don't do those things and it is reprehensible that people in my society do!". That's cute and all but what are we doing about that? Look at the Weinstein scandal - that dude was on a 37 year streak. Or Pixar's Lasseter with a history dating back 15 years. NYT quoted Rashida Jones:

  “There is so much talent at Pixar, and we remain enormous fans of their films,” they continued. “However, it is also a culture where women and people of color do not have an equal creative voice.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/business/media/john-lasse...

Racism, Sexism. _But not me, not in my backyard, those people exercise reprehensible behaviour! shame on them_. Come on.

I'm just saying: we gotta own up a bit, we live in this society too, we also make it what it is and we can all strive to make it better. I don't see bad eggs, I see bad systems that foster bad eggs. my 2c

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#207

Post by wfo »

majewsky wrote: post #196
wfo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The success of the United States economy was almost entirely built on slave labor. Dubai and Qatar, some of the most economically successful countries in their region, are essentially entirely built on slave labor. It is making a comeback in the US because of how efficient it is in the form of mass incarceration combined with prison labor. The inference 'economic success' -> 'morally good' is, well, horrifying. Slave…

> Dubai and Qatar, some of the most economically successful countries in their region, are essentially entirely built on slave labor. Exactly. These massive oil reserves have nothing to do with it. /s

Exactly, you've clearly stated my original point -- economic success in countries has nothing to do with the morality of their society or culture or government. Economic success is more often than not luck of the draw and can happen to brutal slave dictatorships as much as free market democracies.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#208

Post by aaron-lebo »

andrewjl wrote: post #190
andrewjl wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of Hart vs Cohle as an analogy to shame vs guilt cultures. One particular scene I recalled when reading this article was the punishment Hart exacted on the two boys he caught with his daughter. Contrast that to his behavior towards the young women he cheated on his wife with, which is reminiscent of the honor culture described here. Another scene he saw he a woman he was having an affair with seeing another man…

Also common thread in these situations was that the women were denied agency by Hart in his interactions with them.

You got me to watch it again, so thanks. :)

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#209

Post by andrewjl »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #208
andrewjl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also common thread in these situations was that the women were denied agency by Hart in his interactions with them.

You got me to watch it again, so thanks. :)

I also caught a lot more watching it the second time around!
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