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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

201–210 of 785 posts

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#201
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that, the validity of the votes are questionable in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu... > Due to the many irregularities and to the actions taken by the national police and civil guard, the international observers, invited by the Generalitat, declared that the referendum results could not be considered valid as the process failed to meet the minimum international…

I'm guessing "national police" referrs to Spanish police and their brutal suppression of the voting, not Catalan police.

You say "brutal suppression" based on the images you saw in the media, right?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#202
It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point:

This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union.

On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history". The love of the flag and the dishonest approach to history and current socio-economics of the region are strategies followed by every other wannabe-patriot in the world. The illogical approach to their goals and the complete divorce from reality will likely hurt any further attempts for autonomy or proper independence in the long term.

On the Spanish side, the winners of this conflict are ruling right wing and all the until now minoritary extreme-right movements. Thanks to Catalonia, Spanish nationalism of the worst kind can resurface and perpetuate itself in power. It is not casual that Spanish rulers have been completely deaf to the long standing demands of a large part of the Catalonian population.

The only way the Spanish nationalists win is by having the Catalonians take the most confrontational of the paths: declaration of independence.

The only way the Catalonian nationalists win, is by having the Spaniard ones repress and provide a moral ground which supports their otherwise futile aspirations: break the law.

Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU.

The tragedy here is that, in the end, everyone loses. Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists. The majority is just watching this sad show, hoping it's over soon, so they can go back to their lives which, by the way, are exactly or worse than before.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government did exactly that and got a no vote to the Scottish independence. The Brexit vote was full-on farce, people literally had no idea what they were voting yes to. How could they, there was no plan.

The plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.…

I don’t think it’s valid to claim the non voters in an aggregate 65%. Otherwise you could say 68% of the country didn’t vote to leave. Which presumably means it was a stronger position.

Edit - I see you removed that claim.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#204
post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> 5) Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi,

yeah...not sure how well informed your are...Pamplona is NOT a region, but the capital of a region.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#205
post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

Well it is not so easy. First, they will need to modify the constitution, which requires being approved a qualified majority not a simple one in parliament, in this case, is 3/5 of the parliament this reform might need to be approved by referendum (all the country not just Catalunya) in case a tenth of the parliament requires it. Second, the government has no desire to modify the current regional system, which is in line with its voters. Anyway the Canada case is not the norm and similar legislation are in use in other countries, for instance in Germany. https://www.thelocal.de/20170103/bavaria-must-remain-part-of...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#206

The problem is not so much about Catalonia and Spain. There are plenty of such regions and ethnic groups in pretty much every country on the continent. If the ball starts rolling, it can mean going back a few centuries.

I think a Europe of Regions is exactly where we should be going. The nation state has had its day; nationalism is a deeply divisive ideology, responsible for so much war. The EU acting as a leveller and lowest common denominator between states weakens the divisions between nation states, deliberately - precisely because of the dangers of nationalism. And with a weakened nation state, regionalism is relatively more im…

How would what you describe be any different from a large European 'nation'?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually when visiting Spain I was really surprised how much of a federation it is vs a single unified country. If Spain is a federation, and Europe is a federation, dies it make sense to keep both?

This federation is only an outside appearance, though. Spanish gvt has the tools (and is willing to, and already did many times) to bend the laws from any of its regions' local governments. And the cancelled laws were not all about independence. They were about protecting the people who can't pay for energy in winter or banning bullfights, among others.

That is incorrect. It might be your impression, but Spain is actually one of the most decentralized countries in the world. Catalonia has something around 5% of their state workers depending on the central government.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#208
post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

There’s always the risk that you don’t get what you want, like the UK’s referendum on membership of the EU.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#209
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can’t really claim a mandate for leaving when those who wanted to stay boycotted the vote. That said, it would have been much less divisive if a proper referendum had been sanctioned.

Politically active get to decide. I'm not sure why expect it to be otherwise.

Those who wanted to stay would (I suspect) also believe that the referendum was illegal, as per the court order saying so.

Why bother showing up to an illegal referendum, especially when the very fact of it being illegal means no result can be trusted as accurate?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#210
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion on what Catalonia will actually need to do to gain independence. Is civil war (however unlikely) the only way?

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

> Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

Citation needed.

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