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To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

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Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#201

Post by yellowapple »

EugeneAZ wrote: post #166
slim wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting with paper does not scale. You can't make people vote everyday for example, which is required if you'd like to implement direct democracy. On the other hand, with direct democracy, the stakes are lower for each vote. So there is less incentive to manipulate the vote. So it makes sense to use e-voting for direct democracy. In the end the voting mechanism in democracy is not really about precision, it's more abo…

Public - i.e. everyone knows how others have voted - voting can be both precise and secure. Public voting can be done electronically, say, via encrypted SMS. So why to bother with secrecy in the first place?

Secret ballots protect voters from intimidation and blackmail. That particular bit of secrecy is absolutely essential in a democracy.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#202

Post by foepys »

amluto wrote: post #199
blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

I like the model where you vote electronically and you can see (through a clear material) that the machine prints out a copy of your votes and drops them into a bin. You can throw cryptographic verification on top of that if you like.

That's one very expensive pen.

Paper doesn't matter if it isn't being counted. Spotting irregularity in voting results might be possible with statistical methods but how often were votes really recounted?

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#203

Post by xealgo »

Security may not ever be 100% with e-voting systems, but it can be secured enough to where the probability of any hack attempt would have minimal impact on the overall outcome. I can think of several ways to a secure, verified registration could work just off the top of my head. I think the issue is more, where's the incentive for the government to make this happen?

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#204

Post by Arkanosis »

“R. James Woolsey […] former director of [CIA]. Brian J. Fox, […] develop open-source voting systems” — even if I had no opinion on the matter, it'd seem to me that there's a clear conflict of interest there.

To protect voting, do NOT use software. At all. Open-Source software is no more trustable than paper, and is orders of magnitudes more complex to set up and audit. If you can't explain a 5 years old how it works, your voting approach is not trustable.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#205

Post by Arkanosis »

amluto wrote: post #199
blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

I like the model where you vote electronically and you can see (through a clear material) that the machine prints out a copy of your votes and drops them into a bin. You can throw cryptographic verification on top of that if you like.

How do you check that your votes were actually taken into account? Even if you can do that, how do you check that no votes were added on top of legit votes?

If the actual votes are printed, how do you make sure no one can prove their vote to third parties and so be paid for it?

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#206

Post by scierama »

cgmg wrote: post #168
scierama wrote: post #136

"The blockchain is an undeniably ingenious invention – the brainchild of a person or group of people known by the pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto." It isn't even definitively known who invented blockchain, it is behind the pyramid scheme known as bitcoin and no, no way should that ever be used in voting system computers.

I don't think you know what a pyramid scheme is. How about learning the definition of the words you use before throwing them around?

How about you learn some manners, learn to Google, learn to read the results that will appear on your screen.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#207

Post by BurningFrog »

EGreg wrote: post #195
BurningFrog wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With electronic banking I can verify that my money are where they should be. With electronic voting, I can't be sure my vote got counted, and even less sure others weren't tampered with.

Sure you can. If you signed your vote and all votes got included in a markle tree then you can for sure verify that your vote is counted. Imagine bitcoin but with votes instead of transactions. Boom.

I don't know the technology, but I assume that system could be built.

The bad part about that is that if I can validate my vote after the fact, someone else can also demand to see what I voted for, and that opens the door for vote buying, intimidation etc.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#208

Post by cgmg »

scierama wrote: post #206
cgmg wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you know what a pyramid scheme is. How about learning the definition of the words you use before throwing them around?

How about you learn some manners, learn to Google, learn to read the results that will appear on your screen.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pyramid+scheme

"A pyramid scheme is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services."

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin

"Bitcoin is a worldwide cryptocurrency and digital payment system. The system is peer-to-peer, and transactions take place between users directly, without an intermediary... Besides being created as a reward for mining, bitcoin can be exchanged for other currencies, products, and services in legal or black markets."

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#209

Post by EGreg »

BurningFrog wrote: post #207
EGreg wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. If you signed your vote and all votes got included in a markle tree then you can for sure verify that your vote is counted. Imagine bitcoin but with votes instead of transactions. Boom.

I don't know the technology, but I assume that system could be built. The bad part about that is that if I can validate my vote after the fact, someone else can also demand to see what I voted for, and that opens the door for vote buying, intimidation etc.

No, not at all. You can vote anonymously and verify your vote but no one else can map that back to your identity.

As for rubber hose crypanalysis, that is possible now.

Buying votes is already done.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#210

Post by wu-ikkyu »

scaryclam wrote: post #160
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For other systems, a disruption is just inconvenient for most people. Like if I can't use my credit card for a day, I don't care Would there not be far more immediate and direct inconvenience if no one could use their credit cards for a day, than if they couldn't vote for a day? (Assuming the following day both systems were back up and running) What is so inconvenient about have to wait an extra day to cast a vote o…

Where I vote, if you couldn't vote that day, you don't get to vote. So, yeah, I'd prefer to be able to vote than eat for that particular day, given that the consequences can be so vastly different (someone manipulating the voting system to win, and then execute their damaging agenda vs being kind of uncomfortable for one evening). Credit cards are a convenience, voting is both a privilege and (in most western countri…

So fraud seems to be the biggest reason why?

Hasn't blockchain technology shown itself to be more reliable at preventing fraud than the old fashioned way of simply trusting that someone is keeping the books in perfect order?

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