Although I don't understand the US's involvement in this -- a man breaking the rules is being put to justice, and I'm very glad. I'm also impressed by the feds work in the cryptocurrency space. In recent years the fed has really started to reverse the trope of the government not being technologically adept. There are too many that become wealthy through illicit means and it's good news that something effective is bei…
>Although I don't understand the US's involvement in this -- a man breaking the rules is being put to justice, and I'm very glad. This is a terrifying comment. Not much different than a Thai person saying the same about a German rotting in their jail because he offended their king on Twitter. "Justice!"
BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
201–210 of 256 posts
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
I still find it bizarre though - they may never have left their bedroom and suddenly we have a country on another continent getting involved.
If someone in Greece had, while sitting in their bedroom in front of a laptop, hacked into a US bank and stolen money, would you be surprised if the US wanted to extradite and prosecute? The idea that "on the internet" is a magical stateless realm has only ever been an idea in the minds of naïve geeks. It has never been reality.
I'm certainly not surprised the US wants to prosecute, as it seems to want to apply US law to the whole planet.
But I am surprised the in some ways that the system allows it - that person never left Greece. What if the action was something illegal in the US but perfectly legal in the place they are sitting? I don't see that the crime necessarily takes place overseas when what they are really doing is sitting in a room, sending electronic signals from a machine.
>> The idea that "on the internet" is a magical stateless realm has only ever been an idea in the minds of naïve geeks. It has never been reality.
That's not what I'm saying, it's not a stateless realm, but actions taken were not taken in the USA.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
And cars manufacturers assist kidnappers and bank robbers escapes. No. Because there never is any planning between the manufacturer and the bank robbers. Remember: we are talking about money laundering operations here, not accidentally receiving stolen goods without knowing. Can these use be abused? Yes. Very much. Should they still exist? Yes.
Yes. Two questions are: did the BTC-e founder knew that he is helping to legalize proceeds for MtGox hack? Or some general hack? Or just he didn't make due diligence on the source of money and just agreed to help for a fee? And second — what authority the US government has in running the trial? Why the case is not tried in Japanese or Russian or Cyprus courts?
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
If someone in Greece had, while sitting in their bedroom in front of a laptop, hacked into a US bank and stolen money, would you be surprised if the US wanted to extradite and prosecute? The idea that "on the internet" is a magical stateless realm has only ever been an idea in the minds of naïve geeks. It has never been reality.
>> If someone in Greece had, while sitting in their bedroom in front of a laptop, hacked into a US bank and stolen money, would you be surprised if the US wanted to extradite and prosecute? I'm certainly not surprised the US wants to prosecute, as it seems to want to apply US law to the whole planet. But I am surprised the in some ways that the system allows it - that person never left Greece. What if the action was…
When one country chooses to extradite someone to another, it's more often because their government doesn't approve of the actions they are accused of either and was presented with sufficient evidence.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#205The question for me is: why US? He is a Russian citizen, the company is based in Bulgaria, servers in Russia, legal HQ in Cyprus and all the services operated from Seychelles - arrested in Greece. The MtGox hack affected a Japanese company. I'm not debating the nature of the crimes, etc - I am just wondering, when does it become a US case? I can get the "there were US customers" - but why not Europe? Or Japan? Or Rus…
So, when does it become "you have broken the US law and you are under arrest"?. Does it work the other way around too? If you start a gay social network in US, can Russia come in (the first time you are flying in one of the Russia's partners territories) and say "you are breaking Russian gay laws, you are under arrest"?
The best way to think about this is in terms of the laws of the country you are in.
We might be a outraged that Otto Warmbier was treated so harshly (killed really) by North Korea for allegedly stealing a propaganda poster, but at the end of the day we understand that he went to North Korea and in North Korea, North Korean laws apply.
The next step is to ask about actions that took place outside the country you are in but are illegal under that countries laws. So if, for example, Seth Rogen who famously made a movie making fun of Kim Jung-Un were to travel to North Korea we would not at all be surprised if we were arrested and sentenced to a very harsh punishment.
Finally, consider that extradition laws are just like any other domestic laws. The treaty between Greece and the United States means that for the purpose of a lot of criminal laws, physically entering Greece is the same as physically entering the United States.
In this case it was ultimately Greece that decided that what Vinnik did was sufficient to take away his freedom. He subjected himself Greece's judgment by going to Greece. If he had stayed in Russia he probably would not have been extradited.
Going to another country is something many of us take lightly, but it can be a really big deal.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> If someone in Greece had, while sitting in their bedroom in front of a laptop, hacked into a US bank and stolen money, would you be surprised if the US wanted to extradite and prosecute? I'm certainly not surprised the US wants to prosecute, as it seems to want to apply US law to the whole planet. But I am surprised the in some ways that the system allows it - that person never left Greece. What if the action was…
I would hope that if you engage in an action illegal in the US but legal in Greece, the Greek government would choose not to extradite, tell the US government to fuck off, and warn you to be careful when travelling abroad. When one country chooses to extradite someone to another, it's more often because their government doesn't approve of the actions they are accused of either and was presented with sufficient eviden…
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not wrong, but also dismiss some tough moral choices. I'd argue that attacking Libya was against U.S. strategic interests. Since 9/11 Gaddafi had substantially improved relations with the west. He gave up his nuclear program and was basically acting as Europe's bouncer. Since he fell the migrant crisis has exploded. North Korea and Iran learned that despite all promises otherwise, the only way to ensure regime…
It's not clear that you can really cast it as a successful effort to save lives either, given that it's plunged Libya into violent, sectarian civil war.
I think people are too quick to pass judgment on US or NATO intervention in matters and aren't acknowledging the extreme complexity involved in making the right decision. When dealing with some of these international conflicts, sometimes it's less a matter of making the right choice but rather making the least awful choice, and it's often impossible to determine the true consequences of decisions in advance.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money laundering is almost certainly tax evasion. On that regard, it is effectively a crime.
Can you explain this? If someone has a bundle of cash from illegally selling drugs, then they give it to their store front to "launder" as retail income, aren't they now paying tax they wouldn't otherwise pay?
In money laundering, only the retail business pays the tax, so effectively its not the equivalent taxation.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pretty sure that won't matter. Monero will hinder blockchain analysis, but if you're wiring out millions they can just demand you prove the legitimacy. "I got untraceable coins" is on the level of excuse as "I got this sack full of cash". So long they prevent people from cashing out big time, then they're on the same level as cash (see, needing to deposit boxes of cash with HSBC).
Good point. I think it will take a fairly significant transition away from fiat currencies before that situation is eliminated... But one of the incentives of getting rid of cash is to transform the money into something that can be efficiently sent over a large distance, which is something cryptocurrencies already do.
Not really, so long as the IRS and taxes remain a thing. And someone notices the guy who hasn't had a job in the last five years is driving around in a brand new Tesla and living it up in a mansion.
Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
For one of charges in the indictment, "Operation of an Unlicensed Money Transmitting Business" (18 USC § 1960), they allege that BTC-e satisfied two conditions, either of which alone would have been sufficient to prove the charge. One of the conditions is knowingly transmitting funds derived from a criminal offense, but the other one is just "fail[ing] to comply with the money transmitting business registration requi…
This is ridiculous overreach. It sets a dangerous precedent where any online trader must be mindful of all legislation of all possible jurisdictions on the world. Otherwise, sell porn, have one customer from Saudi Arabia, go for a vacation in Turkey, and here comes your flogging extradition trip. At the same time, US has a "Hague invasion act" authorizing military action against international prosecution of their off…