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Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

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Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#201
post #181

I'm starting to see a bit clearer on how a fork would pan out: Miners: Hashing power has little influence. As long as there are miners, and two chains rejecting each other transactions will be processed. At first, transactions processing might take a while, but difficulty will adapt. This will create two legitimate currencies. Now everybody in possession of 1 BTC would have 1 BTCa + 1 BTCb. Exchanges: Little power. T…

I was there at the ETH/ETC split and replay was a thing. Someone put together a special smart contract that received 2 addresses (one for the ETH chain and one for the ETC chain), checked which chain you were in and wired ether to either address accordingly. After doing that (and because valid transaction execution was contingent on the actual chain you were in) each wallet became independent and you were free to use…

Thanks for this reference code!

I got to say, Ethereum really is showing the way to Bitcoin here. The smart contract ecosystem surrounding it is astounding.

----

The BTC equivalent would be to do it by hand; and I don't think it is all that risky, as long as you keep control of all three addresses.

Or, ... maybe a BTC smart contract could help us do it easily? What do we need to enable smart contracts on BTC?

Oh wait, that's right. We need Segwit. The thing potentially causing a fork itself.

We're supposed to have it by the time Segwit2x's double-sized blocks hardfork come, though ^^.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#202
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SegWit2x is an attempt to remove control from the core dev team I disagree. SegWit2x is a misguided attempt to make Bitcoin "more efficient" without realizing that it puts at risk the core value proposition of Bitcoin: censorship resistance. At the root of this debate is a disagreement about what the blockchain is for. On one side, you have all the developers working on the Core project and activists like Amir Taak…

Big blocks increase decentralization and censorship resistance by allowing many more transactions and many more users.

Therefore Visa is decentralized?

Bitcoin as a high throughput transaction network for buying things like coffee is not a good goal. It should be for much larger transactions, but optimized for decentralization and sound money.

Derivative blockchains can be spun off of Bitcoin, and settled periodically to the "reference" blockchain, which is Bitcoin, through lightning networks or other off chain developments (perhaps some sort of forked derivative pegged chains).

Bitcoin only has value as either a distributed non-centrally controlled international settlement network for countries and large banks [0], and/or as a digital Gold.

Optimizing this value out of bitcoin to achieve transaction throughput destroys the necessity of Bitcoin for existing.

Bitcoin proper should remain resistant to change, distributed, unable to be coopted or controlled by a few organizations, and above all, to have the properties of sound money (so resistant to changes to expand the money supply). If it doesn't have these qualities, it has no reason to be valuable. It cannot be all things to all people, but it can to "one" thing very well.

[0] https://thesaifhouse.wordpress.com/2017/05/19/economics-of-b...

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#203

What is Bitcoin and friends good for right now besides speculating with and trading for other currencies? A while back there was a BTC marketplace where among other things, I spent 1 BTC on a steam key for the game Portal (a poor trade in hindsight). But they shut down and the only other place that I can think of that accepts BTC is humblebundle.com - and presumably they convert it to USD right away. Actually: > Bitc…

Steam accepts bitcoin.

Quite a few domain/web hosting/VPS companies accept it, like Namecheap and Namesilo.

Online gambling sites accept it for obvious reasons.

It's hardly ubiquitous, but for some things it's fairly practical.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#204

The basic question is how to scale; off-chain or on-chain. The rest is just theatrics and typical nerdy hyperbole. One side of the fight (Core / blockstream) wants to scale off-chain, pushing transactions to side-chains and/or lighting networks, and want to profit from off-chain solutions. The other side of the fight (segwit2x / miners) wants to scale on-chain, making the blocks bigger, and profit from block fees. Bo…

I think you understate the cons of the on-chain solutions. This said as a big-blocker myself.

I think the size of the node is a consideration, but not a huge one -- before we started butting up against the limit, blocks were naturally much smaller than the 1MB limit -- the fear of spam and dust transactions never materialized, so there's no reason to expect that the economics are fundamentally different now.

The biggest con by far is the hard-forking nature of the change. Changing the limit means that clients will have to accept blocks that they currently don't accept. This applies to core, of course, but also to the innumerable other implementations of the bitcoin protocol. Don't make the mistake of thinking that core is the only player here -- a hard fork is trouble for everyone, miners included, and has a substantial risk of causing two viable chains to appear, which is much more of a disaster for Bitcoin (because of how long it takes to adjust difficulty) than it was for Ethereum. With sufficient consensus, this becomes less of a problem for the same reason -- the defunct 5% chain (with 95% consensus) will take 280 days to converge on a new difficulty, during which time that network will be extremely congested. But if miners are misconfigured, etc., even if there is consensus there may be an unintentional hard fork.

The second biggest problem is the rise in the risk of orphaned blocks. This, I think, is probably what holds most miners back -- the longer it takes to transmit and verify a block, the greater the chance of a block being orphaned is. Orphans hurt the security of the network by making it so that a smaller fraction of the net hashing power is actually being applied to the problem of securing the network. As much as people complain that the proof-of-work is "wasteful" in the ecological sense, wasting even that wasted work would make nobody happy.

Segwit, on the other side of the debate, has the attachment to off-chain scaling, but also offers a solution to transaction malleability, which is a huge problem for bitcoin businesses as it can be difficult to tell whether a transaction ever made it to the network, much less rely on features like child-pays-for-parent. Since the current version of segwit is a soft fork, it should, in theory, work with existing non-core clients, and the Litecoin adoption should give us some information on how that works in practice, but Litecoin doesn't have nearly the adoption that Bitcoin does, so it's hard to generalize.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#205

What is Bitcoin and friends good for right now besides speculating with and trading for other currencies? A while back there was a BTC marketplace where among other things, I spent 1 BTC on a steam key for the game Portal (a poor trade in hindsight). But they shut down and the only other place that I can think of that accepts BTC is humblebundle.com - and presumably they convert it to USD right away. Actually: > Bitc…

it is great for money laundering which is why it is so popular in china. You can buy btc in cash no questions asked and it is untraceble and then sell it at a legit exchange in another country and claim it as legit income or just move it from country to country bypassing currency controls in places like china where no bank will allow you to send more than 50k USD per year out of the country

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#206

The basic question is how to scale; off-chain or on-chain. The rest is just theatrics and typical nerdy hyperbole. One side of the fight (Core / blockstream) wants to scale off-chain, pushing transactions to side-chains and/or lighting networks, and want to profit from off-chain solutions. The other side of the fight (segwit2x / miners) wants to scale on-chain, making the blocks bigger, and profit from block fees. Bo…

> One side of the fight (Core / blockstream) wants to scale off-chain, pushing transactions to side-chains and/or lighting networks, and want to profit from off-chain solutions. I think that gives the wrong impression. First off, Core != Blockstream. Secondly, the consensus amongst Core developers, as I read it, is they want as much on-chain as possible. Their definition of possible is what can a Bitcoin client handl…

> Secondly, the consensus amongst Core developers, as I read it, is they want as much on-chain as possible. Their definition of possible is what can a Bitcoin client handle on the average user's PC

I'm curious if you have some sources on this -- most of the anti-big-block claims that I have seen tend to settle on the hard fork being problematic, which is a very legitimate criticism (thought I need to dig up citations to play by my own rules here). There's also a significant group (I think unaffiliated with Core) that worries about the increase in orphanage that big blocks can lead to.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it is not a bubble, but a new paradigm... Oh, wait.

Personally, I wouldn't call it a new paradigm. It's quite similar to what already exists. With one improvement (which comes with trade-offs).

It was irony: "new paradigm" is a well known euphemism for "bubble".

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#208
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miners can mine segwit2x blocks all they wish, but since services/exchanges are running core client, they are just mining invalid blocks from their viewpoint, and those blocks are ignored. That means miners can't sell their mined segwit2x bitcoins on exchanges. Mining blocks that services don't accept would be very, very stupid, essentially throwing good money to trash.

Maybe I'm misinformed, but aren't SegWit (without 2x) blocks backwards compatible? From what I understood, a valid SegWit block will appear valid to an old client. Certain invalid SegWit blocks will also appear valid to old clients, but those blocks will be rejected by SegWit-enabled miners, so they have little chance to be included should the miners change.

> Maybe I'm misinformed, but aren't SegWit (without 2x) blocks backwards compatible?

You're correct. However, I'm fairly sure OP was talking about Segwit (with 2x).

If most users/exchanges/services don't get on board by the time the scheduled segwit2x hardfork happens, then those blocks would be considered invalid.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#209

After working in the space for about a year, after being a developer and enthusiast surrounding crypto since the early days of BTC this "bickering among core devs" is nothing new. Any press or "talks" that say otherwise are either being influenced with serious bias or are simply reporting false information. I like DLT tech, however, if bitcoin has shown us anything it's that once you solve the double-spend problem yo…

The governance issue is, to me, the 'final boss' of Bitcoin. They way it's set up, Bitcoin should ruthlessly follow the will of the majority and generate new consensus. I cannot think of another system that could potentially do this as effectively.

It's ugly, bitter, and has real costs, but the way it's playing out gives me confidence that cryptocurrencies are truly a novel form of human communication about value.

Re: Bitcoin Is Having a Civil War as It Enters a Critical Month

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I wouldn't sell now, especially if you can wait it out a year or two. The dust will settle eventually, and it'll be on the rise again, most likely, higher than it got a couple of months ago. But I don't know what's going to happen anymore than anyone else claims to.

If you're convinced it's going to fall, then it's stupid to hold. You can sell and rebuy at lower price.

Well, I'm not convinced it's going to, or at least how much longer it will, or how low it's going to get before rebounding. It's damn hard to predict what's going to happen with a high confidence of accuracy. Personally I'd rather just hold instead of trying to catch falling knives. I'm just buying a little more while everything has dropped instead.
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