Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

blog.mozilla.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 251 posts

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#201

Post by abhishivsaxena »

devnonymous wrote: post #176
abhishivsaxena wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Fingerprints are harder to fake than what's being used currently - signatures and xerox 2) Fine. Don't authenticate with Aadhaar when you go to get a commercial service. Why force you choice on me? And the info they get is name/dob/gender. Which they would anyway have - Aadhaar or no Aadhaar - since you are their customer. Please think through it.

> Fingerprints are harder to fake than what's being used currently - signatures and xerox Yes, but once compromised they cannot be changed. Also, could you state clearly whether fingerprints would be used for authentication or identification? > Fine. Don't authenticate with Aadhaar when you go to get a commercial service. Why force you choice on me? Right back at you. I may have a choice when using a commercial servi…

> Right back at you. I may have a choice when using a commercial service but why is the government forcing me to have an Aadhaar if I never intend to use it?

Mostly only if you want subsidies. If you are talking about the PAN linkage, you are already required to have PAN. Is that forcing you as well? That way you can even refuse to follow any regulation, arguing that goverment is forcing you. We don't live in an anarchy. If you don't like Aadhaar go vote for some party which will revoke it come next election. If can't do it, maybe think about changing countries.

> Yes but they cannot build a profile of me using things like income bracket (pan linking), travel information (rail and air travel linking), social and family ties (various other ways). If you think this isn't even plausible in India, either you have skin in the game or are being (/ intentionally trying to be) incredibly naive.

This kinds of profiles can be built using system like Palantair, Aadhaar or no Aaadhaar. Using just Name/DOB/Address can be decent enough identifier. And we already have PAN mandated for high value transactions. Opposing Aadhaar on these grounds, seems extremely silly to me.

Again, I am not connected with Aadhaar at all. Not want clicks like some people on this thread. Just a concerned citizen who wants to see technology help the poor/needy.

EDIT

> Yes, but once compromised they cannot be changed. Also, could you state clearly whether fingerprints would be used for authentication or identification?

Identity Authentication, because you identify yourself using the Aadhaar number, then prove it by authenticating.

Yes they can't be changed. But since there's an audit trails + you need an insider@service-provider to pass the stolen BM to server, those who try would be easily caught. With signatures/xerox there's no audit trails or instant notification. That's much more insecure if you look at it dispassionately.

Many people are not understanding Aadhaar is being used for stuff like bank accounts, food grain etc where this is acceptable.

Alternative like signatures, smart-cards, passwords etc wouldn't work in a country like India.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#202

Post by abhishivsaxena »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #175
realonedev wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enrollment started in 2011 and people also got it via post in 2011. Why do you think the people didn't supported the privacy activists for all these 5 years ? Who are the people making disproportionate amount of noise (not signal) against Aadhar ? Do they actually care about privacy? Hard to believe. Do these people have vested interest in sustaining the corrupt middleman model ? Easy to believe. If you had lost thou…

> Do they actually care about privacy? Hard to believe. Do these people have vested interest in sustaining the corrupt middleman model ? Easy to believe. Are there people whose corrupt interests are impacted by Aadhar creating noise? Surely. Does that mean there are no legitimate concerns about such a program? Of course not. We're trying to discuss the latter here. I do not find you meaningfully contributing to that…

> I mentioned elsewhere that centralized anti-corruption programs have a terrible track record for a reason. If you couldn't count on your institutions to prevent corruption, you cannot count on them to prevent abuse of power. Given that track record, a default position of scepticism is warranted.

This isn't an anti corruption program. Just an National Id like in any other country. And BM authentication to keep your data secure using consent driven architecture.

Astonishing how something even simple that would create such noise in India.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#203

Post by aashiks »

dang wrote: post #182
aashiks wrote: post #35

The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting. The poor and the rich have had "real" identification that has worked well - the electoral ID for example. Forcing aadhar down everyone's throat with no practical complaint redressal is the issue here. (Good luck getting UIDAI to take responsibility) Aadhar is not progress. Forcing biometric identification that relies on brittle infra is not progress. It…

> The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting. This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments. Please edit that kind of thing, and bilious bits in general, out of your comments if you want to post here. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14431021 and marked it off-topic.

Apologies, but how do Imake an edit now ?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#204

Post by realonedev »

narrowrail wrote: post #178
splintercell wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you get the caste of a person by reading the Aadhar number ? Are you saying that government does not have any information associated with the Aadhar number? You're straw manning really badly. The whole argument, nearly every single person in this thread, making against you is that Aadhar is dystopian. But your argument is "But you can't figure out a person's info by just reading the Aadhar number".

As an American (born and raised), this whole discussion is fascinating and is similar to the 'Obamacare' debate here. All of the Indians I've known in the US corroborate your claim about knowing one's religion/ heritage by last name alone. I hope the discussion can remain civil, but there does seem to be an agenda among some participants.

The Indians you know are wrong about their ability to figure out caste by last name.

It's a intutive thing to say, but wrong.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#205

Post by akytt »

Aadhaar per se is quite harmless. It is pretty much what Estonia has been doing for the past 25 years with no ill effects. Quite in contrary. The question is privacy: we have a strong personal privacy law and are moving to make things more transparent all the time. People do care about this. Whether that's the case in India and to what extent, is up to Indians to say.

Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#206

Post by _pythonlover_ »

I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms.

These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#207

Post by abhishivsaxena »

_pythonlover_ wrote: post #206

I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms. These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.

You can ask aadhaar to dispatch notifications to you every time an authentiction happens.

Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate.

The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore?

Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc.

There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#208

Post by pseudalopex »

abhishivsaxena wrote: post #96
schoen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birth certificates don't contain biometrics [edit: I guess some hospitals include a newborn's footprints] and may not contain address in some states; the address is also never updated (nor is the name in case of name changes). They also aren't issued by the national government and are kept in databases at the state level -- sometimes on paper. I don't believe there are any national standards for what data a birth cer…

Really. So anyone can physically break into an archiving unit, steal someone's BC, change some details and use it get benefits/fraud? And the victim wouldn't even get a hint? Sounds very dangerous! I have my details saved in a centralised database, which notifies me via an SMS anytime my credentials are used. I acknowledge the BM issue elsewhere in this thread. But please realise that unless you live in a cave your B…

No, a birth certificate isn't proof of identity. It's typically used to establish an identified person's citizenship or date of birth.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#210

Post by xeronkek »

mundanevoice wrote: post #48
adityab wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have been fine with Aadhar if - They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication - There would not be an API for commercial services I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.

You do understand that it doesn't only rely on fingerprints, right? There is retinal verification in addition to phone OTP. I had another phone number when I got Aadhar, I changed the city, lost my phone number and now there is no way, I can without physically getting somewhere and submitting the application to update my phone number. API for commercial services isn't a bad thing per se. A lot of time, it would save…

>API for commercial services isn't a bad thing per se. A lot of time, it would save time in documentation. Btw, if you have such a privacy concern, Are you not using Facebook, Whatsapp and all other services for free that sell you data, you behaviour to commercial companies.

So you mean to say that its cool to leak my whole family tree data along with AADHAR and PHONE NUMBER to the public? So a novice can know about my sister via Dark net and can use that piece of information?

>Implying I am using Facebook. >Implying Zuck is forcing you to hand out your fingerprints and shit for better services. >Implying you can't get SIM without having a Facebook ID.

>I hope you are in the second group that would help make our Country a better place to live in.

Tell me one way AADHAR is making this country a better place and I will counter that challenge without implementing AADHAR.

Post reply on HN