NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#201

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 24, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

scaryspooky wrote: post #190

logfromblammo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't voted for the winner since 1996. As I don't see my own views or those of the major political parties changing any time soon, my voice is largely ignored in the current system. And it will likely continue to be ignored until the following happen: 1. Abolish gerrymandering in favor of a strictly algorithmic approach to redistricting that cannot take into account voting data from prior elections or current par…

And how, if we try to throw out the entire system, do you expect that to happen when it is clearly against the interest of the two major parties? That's why I said the push shouldn't be to burn down the whole system, it should be minor changes that both major parties can agree to implement. You can't shoot for the moon if you can't even get a launch pad.

[deleted]

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#202

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, May 24, 2017, 9:45 PM UTC

scaryspooky wrote: post #190

logfromblammo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't voted for the winner since 1996. As I don't see my own views or those of the major political parties changing any time soon, my voice is largely ignored in the current system. And it will likely continue to be ignored until the following happen: 1. Abolish gerrymandering in favor of a strictly algorithmic approach to redistricting that cannot take into account voting data from prior elections or current par…

And how, if we try to throw out the entire system, do you expect that to happen when it is clearly against the interest of the two major parties? That's why I said the push shouldn't be to burn down the whole system, it should be minor changes that both major parties can agree to implement. You can't shoot for the moon if you can't even get a launch pad.

> And how, if we try to throw out the entire system, do you expect that to happen when it is clearly against the interest of the two major parties?

If eliminating the existing system is the goal, the way it is achieved is (as has been the case for many changes which aren't supported initially by the major parties) to first move it by, and in States which have, citizen initiative processes which supercede the preferences of elected partisan politicians.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#203

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, May 24, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

qb45 wrote: post #191

logfromblammo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has dipped into the libertarian infinity pool of crazy, and flopped right over the side into the freefall insanity of pragmatic anarchism, I am aware that most lasting societal changes have only been accomplished by creating rivers of blood--the Reign of Terror, the Soviet Revolution, the Holocaust, the Killing Fields, etc. And I am also aware that the new boss is usually either the same as the old bos…

> In short, black-bag some elites, and shoot them up with a witches brew of MDMA, LSD, DXM, Datura, nicotine, cannabis, salvinorin-A, high fructose corn syrup, fluoride, chemtrail distillate, et cetera (Poe's Law disclosure: the latter three were satire), and see if that can cure them of being selfish assholes. No, it'll give them a bad trip and they will hang you by your own guts. This (and more) had already been tr…

As I recall, the goals of that project were somewhat different.

I am specifically suggesting a cure for antisocial personality disorder. Hallucinogens have been successfully used clinically to treat addiction and other self-destructive behaviors. Anecdotal reports from recreational drug users sometimes include sensations of being connected to everything else on the planet, and coming down with a profound and newfound respect for life. MDMA reportedly enhances natural empathy.

Currently, the only proven, permanent cure for sociopathy is to put a bullet in the sociopath's head and then cremate the body.

While that is effective, it is morally abhorrent to go around murdering people for having a brain defect. And most mind-altering drugs are barred from serious research into peaceful clinical applications, due to being scheduled substances. There may be a banned substance, or some combination of banned substances, that could form the basis of a treatment or cure for antisocial personalities, and particularly for the narcissistic sociopaths.

Alternately, a pacemaker-like device implanted into the brain might work, but that seems dangerous and expensive.

If no cure can be found, and no cure is possible, the logical thing to do would then be to devise an objective test, targeting 0% false positives, to identify sociopaths, and exile them away from all normal humans. Or murder them. But only a sociopath would be able to implement such a solution, so you might see the problem there.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#204

Post by omginternets » Wed, May 24, 2017, 10:09 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #186

omginternets wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to one problem should not be discounted on the grounds that it doesn't solve every problem. >Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? You say this as though there were a known solution to the problem. You may as well say "what about the heat death of the universe?" Quid de morte ad universum calorem , if you prefer ;)

>>Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? >You say this as though there were a known solution to the problem. The opposite, actually.

So then did you have an actual point, or were you just bringing up one of the biggest unsolved problems of all times?

I'll say it again: you could have argued "what about the heat death of the universe" and it would have been just as substantive a contribution...

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#205

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, May 24, 2017, 10:13 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #200

logfromblammo wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't voted for the winner since 1996. As I don't see my own views or those of the major political parties changing any time soon, my voice is largely ignored in the current system. And it will likely continue to be ignored until the following happen: 1. Abolish gerrymandering in favor of a strictly algorithmic approach to redistricting that cannot take into account voting data from prior elections or current par…

> 2. Abolish first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting, probably using approval voting and some means of apportioning representation that is proportional to approvals. Approval plus proportional is a bizarre concept; approval, to the extent it makes any sense for public elections (and there are serious problems with it for that purpose) makes sense really only for inherently single-winner elections. For proportiona…

I only chose approval as an alternative to FPTP because most current ballot-counting machines are capable of handling it with minimal alteration, and it reduces the effects of strategic voting.

It seems obvious to me that any voting system that involves ranking would tend to discourage more open ballot access, as people are more likely to honestly and accurately rank 2 or 3 people than they are to rank 10. If it can handle proportionality almost as well as single transferable vote, without additional complexity to the voter, it may actually be better fro ma practical standpoint.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#206

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, May 24, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #205

dragonwriter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Abolish first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting, probably using approval voting and some means of apportioning representation that is proportional to approvals. Approval plus proportional is a bizarre concept; approval, to the extent it makes any sense for public elections (and there are serious problems with it for that purpose) makes sense really only for inherently single-winner elections. For proportiona…

I only chose approval as an alternative to FPTP because most current ballot-counting machines are capable of handling it with minimal alteration, and it reduces the effects of strategic voting. It seems obvious to me that any voting system that involves ranking would tend to discourage more open ballot access, as people are more likely to honestly and accurately rank 2 or 3 people than they are to rank 10. If it can…

Approval ballots is just a special case of ranked ballots with only two ranks, so as far as considering and honestly rating a large number of candidates is concerned, it shares any problem ranked ballots have.

While there are some good arguments for allowing ties in ranked ballots (unforced vs. forced preference), I think there are pretty big problems with forcing tied rankings.

> If it can handle proportionality almost as well as single transferable vote

I don't think it can, but because there is no clear mapping between actual preferences (or preferences that would be provided on an unforced preference ballot) and approval ballot (or any other limited-rank-preference ballot) markings, that's a hard empirical question that's not really analytically addressable.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#207

Post by Overtonwindow » Wed, May 24, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #144

captainmuon wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a revolution. I'm only half joking. I think we can't solve these problems within the current political and economical and system. We have to found a new radical political movement. A lot of the problems we face: the crisis of representational democracy, populism, unemployment, xenophobia, the surveillance state, terrorism, ... cannot be solved individually, but I believe must be fixed simultaneously. We got to…

The American Revolution is one of the few outliers in history were such revolutionary action actually lead to such good results (relative to more likely possible alternatives). The cost of a revolution is heavy, and generally the outcome is almost certainly as bad or worse as the states of affairs that sparked it. I'm a hopeless cynic, but I always find a bit of reluctant optimism about the present after reading a bi…

Today a revolution would be illegal. Not just illegal but even talk of a revolution, or openly espousing that the idea should be considered.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#208

Post by boomboomsubban » Wed, May 24, 2017, 11:29 PM UTC

dandelion_lover wrote: post #181

arca_vorago wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute first step is to take control of your devices. LineageOS or Replicant phone. GNU+Linux on computer, openwrt or similar on router/switches, ipfire similar on firewall. Firefox instead of chrome or opera. VLC instead of iTunes. Emacs/Vim instead of sublime. Blender instead of Maya. Etc. I'm working on this myself. It's not easy, but it is worth it. RMS was and is right: either the user controls the program…

> GNU+Linux on computer Why not Qubes OS?

Qubes is Gnu+Linux, it's a fine choice but not the only one.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#209

Post by williamscales » Wed, May 24, 2017, 11:39 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #207

SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Revolution is one of the few outliers in history were such revolutionary action actually lead to such good results (relative to more likely possible alternatives). The cost of a revolution is heavy, and generally the outcome is almost certainly as bad or worse as the states of affairs that sparked it. I'm a hopeless cynic, but I always find a bit of reluctant optimism about the present after reading a bi…

Today a revolution would be illegal. Not just illegal but even talk of a revolution, or openly espousing that the idea should be considered.

Well, the American Revolution was illegal at the time. And it was illegal to plan. So I think that just kind of comes with the territory of having a revolution.

Re: NSA secretly conducted illegal searches on Americans for years

#210

Post by krapp » Wed, May 24, 2017, 11:53 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #207

SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Revolution is one of the few outliers in history were such revolutionary action actually lead to such good results (relative to more likely possible alternatives). The cost of a revolution is heavy, and generally the outcome is almost certainly as bad or worse as the states of affairs that sparked it. I'm a hopeless cynic, but I always find a bit of reluctant optimism about the present after reading a bi…

Today a revolution would be illegal. Not just illegal but even talk of a revolution, or openly espousing that the idea should be considered.

Revolutions are always illegal. The American Revolution was very clearly illegal as far as England was concerned, and the US Civil war was illegal to the Union. Even the Founding Fathers, some of whom certainly believed the right to revolutionary violence was necessary and healthy for a free state, would not have accepted the right of the people to string them up.

But your second sentence isn't accurate. The US is almost unique in the degree to which discussing the violent overthrow of the American government is not only tolerated, but held sacred by many people. From right wing talk radio to the Tea Party to Republican political ads during the Obama administration to NRA rallies, intimating the need for revolution and "Second Amendment solutions" is common enough that it may be the oldest meme in American culture.

Of course, there is a line beyond which it becomes conspiracy to commit murder, and then it becomes illegal, which is to be expected as every state assumes its own legitimacy. But the chilling effect you seem to be trying to suggest doesn't really exist as far as I can tell.