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Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 222 posts

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#201
post #70

The reason I have trouble saving is not because I am a weak-willed low-life as implied by this article. The reason is because there is not enough money to pay for things that I need, so I have to make difficult choices about what to go without. And choosing to save usually seems unwise when it means neglecting some other need.

Yes, exactly (and I don't believe the article implied what you said.) People with low incomes make rational spending choices. By offering a financial incentive to use the vault, Wal-Mart is trying to make saving as attractive as another possible purchase. Borrowing your language, saving becomes a difficult choice instead of an easy choice not to save.

How do we define a rational choice that doesn't end up making the choice chosen always the rational one regardless of what the choice is?

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#202
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the UK I always find it astounding that Americans are used to paying money to.. withdraw or deposit their money. How did this become the norm? I find it a bit disgusting actually. The only cash machines that charge over here that I've seen are rented ones at packed events (clubs, concerts etc).

It's not the norm. Most Americans (at least in my experience) will go out of their way to use an ATM that doesn't charge them. Accordingly, picking a bank with a large ATM network is a major consideration when choosing a bank. Some smaller banks compete with this by reimbursing fees charged by out-of-network ATMs, making all ATMs effectively free. It is certainly possible to pay for those services, but it's not norma…

I've got a Charles Schwab account mainly because it refunds all my ATM fees at the end of the month. It's great never having to run around looking for the right brand of ATM.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#203
post #31

> living paycheck to paycheck is now a commonplace middle-class experience The article states this as fact. Seems wholly bogus, but perhaps I define middle class weirdly. I think of it as robust stability moreso than income earned. Anyone know a plausible source for the assertion?

The middle class in America average about $50k in household income ($25k each). Regardless of income, by definition, the middle class should always average out to basically break even unless we are in periods of rapid growth. This should happen because their willingness to pay for food and shelter is determined by what they make and eventually prices will catch up to income if income doesnt grow. I imagine the concep…

Price is determined by demand, yes, but also by supply. I'd pay an awful lot of money for food, but cheap industrial farming means I don't have to. Housing is more limited because the monopolistic nature of ownership, but there is a reason why suburbs grow, cheap land.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#204
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But withdrawing and depositing money is a service that costs the banks money to do doesn't it? It's literally their job. It's their function. Why am I reimbursing them? I'm giving them my money essentially to invest, why am I also paying them to support basic business functions on my money , with my money , while they make money using my money ? It's easy to say "hurr durr why are you paying them for a service they…

> I'm giving them my money essentially to invest But what about those people who aren't giving the bank any meaningful capital to invest? What is the bank getting in return in that case? Or are you arguing that banks should be forced to provide it as a kind of social service even if they don't earn anything? I can understand that kind of point of view.

So, where I live there's at least 5 different banks that offer free accounts, domestic transfers are free, and I think about three of them offer free withdrawals from any ATM in the country. Withdrawing from a foreign ATM in Europe is like 0.3 EUR. Oh and they give you a card for free, of course.

And it's not like they are about to go out of business either.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#205
post #140

Kind of fucked up that the article doesn't mention the fees associated with these cards until like 3/4 of the way into the article. These cards charge 5 bucks a month, plus like 3 dollars to deposit cash, 3 dollars to withdraw cash, in addition to the 5-10 dollars up front for the card itself. Because of this, a person using this type of card can easily spend $100+ a year on fees. Not exactly a great way to save mone…

As someone from the UK I always find it astounding that Americans are used to paying money to.. withdraw or deposit their money. How did this become the norm? I find it a bit disgusting actually. The only cash machines that charge over here that I've seen are rented ones at packed events (clubs, concerts etc).

I can't give a super accurate history of how we got here, but it seems as though it's been a gradual process. Once the banks saw that people at bars, casinos, and high end hotels would pay these 'convenience' fees, they said to themselves, "why not do this everywhere?"

It also ties in to how banks are regulated. Now again, I'm not super well versed in the history here, but as I understand it, after the stock market crash in the 20's, congress passed the Glass-Steagall act which, among other things, said that the banks either had to be an investment bank, or a commercial bank, but not both. That way the commercial banks, which are holding regular folks money, can't gamble it all away. That seemed to work pretty well, so much so that congress was later convinced to repeal large portions of Glass-Steagall.

Once that happened, investment bank culture, which never really left commercial banks, once again came to prominence, along with it's emphasis on making money for shareholders.

The reason I mention all that is to say that during Glass-Steagall commercial banks had to go back to making money slowly but surely through giving out safe loans and charging modest fees for basic services. In the meantime, their shareholders, having had a taste of the large dividends generated by investment fees and the like, came to expect more than the safe, modest returns commercial banks used to provide. In order to appease investors, commercial banks then had to look for other ways of generating profits. That's where things like atm fees, excessive overdraft charges, monthly checking account fees, and the like come in.

The fees and stuff actually got so bad that congress passed a law mandating that the banks had to allow people to opt out of overdrafts, among other things. Unfortunately, this law had been kicking around for several years by the time it got passed, so the banks had plenty of time to weaken it and/or find work arounds. For instance, where you used to get a single overdraft charge for each time you overdrafted, many banks went to a system where you got a daily charge for every day your account was in the negative. I've literally seen someone crying in the bank upon being told that what should have been a single $40 charge had grown in the course of a week or so into a $400 charge. Sadly, this is just one of many such examples of how commercial banks have changed their practices to prioritize profits over public service.

Hope that all made sense. As I said, I'm not a historian, and a lot of the stuff I discuss is widely debated, but if you find it interesting there's a lot of good info on wikipedia and youtube, not to mention your local library. :)

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#206

>Walmart sells the card for $1, and Green Dot charges the usual associated fees: $5 a month if your balance is less than $1,000; $2.50 for ATM withdrawals; etc. This is absolutely not how one should encourage people to save. This is Walmart trying to steal business from local banks/and or provide banking services to people in rural locations. Personally, I think Walmart should offer this at zero-cost to help their cu…

"Steal business from local banks.." Ok if the local banks are serving their communities well then why would Wal Mart even have a market opportunity here? Clearly local banks aren't serving the community or else Wal Mart's efforts would be redundant.

What I'm trying to say is that Walmart isn't actually providing much value over the local bank, as the consumer costs are astronomical in comparison to the average account balance. The whole notion that they're helping the person "save" while charging these fees is ludicrous; and this is what the article is purporting.

You are correct though, local banks aren't necessarily helping people save either, especially those who are living paycheck to paycheck.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#207
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loretta Taylor, who lives in the southern-Illinois town of Mount Vernon, started using a Walmart MoneyCard when her local bank branch closed late last year, forcing her to drive 45 minutes to make a deposit. A registered nurse, she has lately been working as an in-home caregiver, and sometimes gets paid in cash, which she can put onto the card (for a $3 fee) at a nearby Walmart. “I’m not making much money right now…

> $5 a month fee on low balances The fee is not on low balances. It's on low loading volume.

Indeed you are right! Unfortunately, that's even worse.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#208
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the UK I always find it astounding that Americans are used to paying money to.. withdraw or deposit their money. How did this become the norm? I find it a bit disgusting actually. The only cash machines that charge over here that I've seen are rented ones at packed events (clubs, concerts etc).

It's not the norm. Most Americans (at least in my experience) will go out of their way to use an ATM that doesn't charge them. Accordingly, picking a bank with a large ATM network is a major consideration when choosing a bank. Some smaller banks compete with this by reimbursing fees charged by out-of-network ATMs, making all ATMs effectively free. It is certainly possible to pay for those services, but it's not norma…

I believe the CFPB has at least put the fear of god into most banks, at the very least Wells Fargo changed from largest-first to time-of-transaction ordering for debits from the account in the past couple years - and I believe most of the other big banks have done so as well.

Of course, the CFPB is looking pretty dead at this point, so who knows what they'll do after Trump dismantles it.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#209
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that many large banks actively discourage customers from opting out of overdrafts. So much so that they even have scripts they make their tellers recite. For example, if you attempt to opt out, the teller might say, "but what if you are at the gas pump and can't get gas because you have opted out of overdrafts?" The subtext being, "wouldn't it be better to get enough gas to get home and in the…

Allowing overdraft for checks can save you money though since you'd have to pay the depositors fee otherwise. A good bank let's you disable overdraft for debit card while enabling it for checks.

Solution: don't write checks? I use cashier's checks wherever possible, I get them for free and there's never a potential for overdraft nightmares since it comes out of my account right away - the only time I've written a check in recent memory is the registration fee for my daughter's preschool since my wife wanted to pay it on-the-spot if she liked the place.

Re: Walmart's effort to get customers to build up their savings accounts

#210
post #71
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to overdraft a debit card even if overdraft is not enabled on the account, due to how some merchants process some transactions.

That's a cost that should be worn by the merchant, if they aren't going to check that money is available in the account then that's their problem. Is their anywhere else in the western world that has these problems? Or even the developing world?

The biggest places you used to see this were gas stations, they'd put a $10 hold on your account and then post the transaction for whatever you actually purchased - this two-phase process also exists at restaurants for tips.

The gas station issue has been mostly solved, debit networks now allow you to query the available balance on the linked account - I've been embarrassed once a few years ago when the pump only allowed me to put a couple dollars worth of gas in the tank because I had overdraft protection turned off (not an issue these days, I'm in much better financial health).

The issue with restaurants will eventually be solved when they are forced to switch to EMV and require you to put the tip in before the card is run, not writing it on the receipt. But who knows when they'll be forced to, the liability shift obviously hasn't bothered them much.

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